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Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

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  • Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

    12 months ago I was seeking more shot consistency and pondering whether to PID my Silvia or move into a HX class machine. From the outset I made it clear I didnt need a HX machine as such, but was purely considering this to take more control of the temperature consistency. The result was a PID which has definitely helped with the temperature consistency - but Im still not that happy with the consistency of the shots. Often theyll blond relatively early, and its only once in a while they hold their colour long enough to get a 25ml shot with no blonding - more often than not Ill be stopping at around 10ml.

    So Im back at the same intersection, but this time considering whether the group design of a HX class machine will allow for more consistency in this area, be it through water distribution, pre-infusion, energy polarisers or whatever. When I was working at Epic I was able to get very good length pours with no blonding, using beans ground on a Robur and extracted in a Synesso Cyncra. So the difference here could be the machine or the grinder, or both - but Id be surprised if a Super Jolly is so far behind a Robur to cause a difference of these proportions. I dont have any particular objections about upgrading within reason but the Silvias fine for most of what I need so I wouldnt want to make the shift if its not going to address these issues. Times like these I wish I lived in Melbourne and could borrow a HX machine for a week!

    Id appreciate any comments on whether the machines in the class Im talking about are likely to make a noticeable difference in this area compared to the Silvia, or what other factors should be looked at.

    Greg

  • #2
    Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

    Greg
    I started at the pointy end
    I can’t complain about the results as they are on par with your results at Epic

    The main reason I chose a HX as my first machine was a process of elimination
    A machines good coffee making ability is always a prerequisite
    I looked at the:-
    Silvia good machine but cant handle the volume I need
    VBM Levetta better machine but still cant handle the volume I need

    So I got the Bezzera Galatea with Pullman Tamper/Synesso basket combo as it ticked all the boxes
    It gave me what I needed and the HX machine is very easy to use
    (You will come to appreciate the ease of use)

    I have no regrets about the Bezzera as I pull a great shot after a great shot of beautiful coffee time and time again

    I enjoy making coffee in a calm & relaxed way
    One is more confident when you know it will work out great and you don’t get angry and frustrated “I think that is my secret”

    But a good HX machine goes a long way to getting one to that happy place

    Can’t ask for more than that

    KK

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    • #3
      Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

      Originally posted by Greg Pullman link=1223035464/0#0 date=1223035464
      a PID which has definitely helped with the temperature consistency - but Im still not that happy with the consistency of the shots. Often theyll blond relatively early, and its only once in a while they hold their colour long enough to get a 25ml shot with no blonding - more often than not Ill be stopping at around 10ml.
      Sounds more like an underlying technique issue there Greg....

      When I had the trusty little Imat Mokita with PID Controller, I could pull beautiful, treacly tiger-striped shots day in and day out; both singles and doubles. Maybe you need to go back to basics, start from scratch and see if you can identify where things are going wrong. Unless there is something grossly wrong with your PIDd Silvia, Im not sure what else could be the problem? Hope you can sort it out mate... :-?

      Mal.

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      • #4
        Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

        My machine progression:
        Silvia and Rocky (about 3 years)
        Silvia PIDd and Rocky (about 3 years)
        Vibiemme Domobar Super and Rocky (about nine months)
        Vibiemme Domobar Super and Mazzer Kony (about seven months)

        For the quality and consistency of the espresso alone, I wouldnt trade the VBM for 4 PIDd Silvias. In the past five weeks I have been making at least two doubles a day (four n most Saturdays), and they have all been wonderful. I can only comment on this machine, but Silvia was just a toy in comparison. The best four or five shots I got from Silvia in 6 years were just about equal to what the VBM can do day after day.

        I pulled a shot for a photo the other day so I used a clear, straight-sided glass I got a full two ounces of crema before it started to separate into dark, liquid espresso using my home roast.

        The grinder change made a difference as well. The taste changed to the point that I changed my house blend a bit and am roasting a bit darker than before to mute the acidity. The Rockys steps were too coarse and the "rocking" of the upper burr I believe made getting a consistent grind difficult.

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        • #5
          Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

          hi greg

          what size single basket are u using
          try a larger basket

          the grinder should sh__ it in. are the burrs in good nick

          hope your using a good tamper

          graham

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          • #6
            Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

            Thanks guys. It certainly sounds like the machines in the pointy end can do very well. I would hope after all this time theres not still some consistent technique issue. Graham, Im using the Synesso double basket, the Super Jolly is about six months old (oh, and a reasonable tamper, made by some Pullman guy ). Machines normally left on for at least an hour with the PF intact before use.

            My technique is fairly standard - grind through the doser until basket is overfull, tap twice on dosing forks and scrape off with the back of a knife, refill, retap and rescrape, tamp, load. The tampers level and the pressure fairly consistent, and the pour normally comes out both sides at about the same time. The pour speed I aim to be running slowly with a few drips, or sometimes a touch faster. But its not unusual for the colour to suddenly turn pale several seconds into the shot. Water distribution from the showerscreen seems to be even across the group, and shots with a bottomless portafilter dont seem to consistently show any common failings (such as one side underdosed or overtamped). Although blonding will normally start at any given point, the colour in general just seems to change quicker than it should. The puck normally comes out slightly damp with the screw and showerscreen impression on the top and knocks out in a single piece.

            Randy, yeah that was pretty much my feelings on using the Synesso - shots were consistently good and occasionally Id get a Silvia shot that matched it.

            My gut feeling is that its water distribution or the puck getting blasted by the early onset of pressure before it expands but I dont really know. And Im reluctant to splash out if the machine isnt the issue at all - and if Mal could get those results from a Mokita with poorer water distribution then it could well be something else.

            Of course any Adelaidites who want to loan me their VBM for a week, step right up! ;D

            Greg

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            • #7
              Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

              OK... I see a couple of things to address. After going through your routine as documented above, if you are getting shots on occasion that turn pale early, I believe that you are over-dosing and causing the puck to be fractured when it hits the shower screen when locked into place. it might also be a "delamination" between the two levels of coffee (between the first fill and tamp and the second fill and tamp).

              The other situation is that by using that much coffee, in essence all that you can possibly stuff into the basket,  you are forced to use a coarser grind.

              I am not personally acquainted with the basket you are using, but when there are problems it is best to go back to basics.  Try this:

              - grind through the doser until basket is overfull. Continually flick the dosing lever to dispense the smallest amount of coffee at a time. Move the PF around to get it as level and evenly distributed as you can without shaking or bumping the portafilter.

              - tap the side of the PF, GENTLY, just once, to settle the grounds SLIGHTLY in order to fill any voids in the pile.

              - scrape off level with the back of a knife. Do this without disturbing the coffee and without compressing the coffee. I use a series of short strokes, sort of lifting at the end of each stroke. Hard to explain in words, but you are sort of trying to levitate the top surface until it is level- scrape-and-life in one forward motion over and over, about 5 to 10mm at a time as the coffees consistency and static attraction dictates.

              - tamp however makes you feel comfortable- anything in the 15 to 55 pound range should work just fine. I am assuming you have a proper-sized tamper...    :

              I think that if you do that you are going to need a grind about 1.5 to 2 "clicks" finer, or maybe a bit more.

              This is not necessarily the "Best" way t do it, but it eliminates a number of possible factors that can lead to extraction problems, and helps build a foundation. it works GREAT for me as I just finished 5 weeks of pulling two or more doubles a day with no early blonding, using my home roast. it is a remarkable thing to pull a double into a clear, straight-walled cup, and see two full ounces or crema before the Guiness effect takes place and the espresso starts to show at the bottom!

              Give it a go. Also, I have a very detailed troubleshooting guide on my website, specifically written about espresso and solving problems such as these. it is #12  in the "How To" section in the right column of the main page...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                Greg,
                I wont be lending my VBM Domobar (Levetta), but you are welcome to pop in with or without some beans for a go on it.
                I live in Bellevue Heights.
                Greg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                  My technique is fairly standard - grind through the doser until basket is overfull, tap twice on dosing forks and scrape off with the back of a knife, refill, retap and rescrape, tamp, load. The tampers level and the pressure fairly consistent, and the pour normally comes out both sides at about the same time. The pour speed I aim to be running slowly with a few drips, or sometimes a touch faster. But its not unusual for the colour to suddenly turn pale several seconds into the shot. Water distribution from the showerscreen seems to be even across the group, and shots with a bottomless portafilter dont seem to consistently show any common failings (such as one side underdosed or overtamped). Although blonding will normally start at any given point, the colour in general just seems to change quicker than it should. The puck normally comes out slightly damp with the screw and showerscreen impression on the top and knocks out in a single piece
                  OK... I see a couple of things to address. After going through your routine as documented above, if you are getting shots on occasion that turn pale early, I believe that you are over-dosing and causing the puck to be fractured when it hits the shower screen when locked into place. it might also be a "delamination" between the two levels of coffee (between the first fill and tamp and the second fill and tamp).

                  The other situation is that by using that much coffee, in essence all that you can possibly stuff into the basket, you are forced to use a coarser grind.
                  Greg P
                  When I tried to follow instructions that I read and seen regarding fill and tamp it ended in less than perfect results

                  My mechanical engineering past got the better of me so I experimented and measured the depth level of the puck after tamp in the filter basket
                  After about half dozen dry runs I found the correct level to be 8mm deep
                  That depth gave me a 0.5 mm clearance at the screen of the Bezzera
                  Ever since then I have had no more issues

                  If you do the same trial and error to find the correct depth then you will always have a point of reference

                  On the Barista tamper my point of reference is the first guide line closest to the handle

                  KK


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                    Interesting you suggest that Randy, I was actually considering something much along those lines - downdose and grind finer and work from there. My technique doesnt actually involve two tamps - theres two stages of settling and scraping but no tamp in between, precisely for that reason. But there could still be a linear fracture. My scraping method is already pretty similar to that - I do that mainly to allow coffee to fall into the lower portions at the edge of the basket. Will give those things a try and see how it goes.

                    Thanks for the offer Greg, I may take it up if I still run up against a brick wall. Which grinder do you have?

                    Greg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end


                      As far as comparisons are concerned, I have two machines: A la Pavoni Bar T2 (twin E61 groups) and a highly modded Faema Family. The Faema has PID control of the boiler with the TC embedded into the group. While the feedback is slow, it still stabilizes the boiler AND allows exquisite control of the shot temperature profile. I can get flat temp profiles, rising profiles and falling profiles with simple adjustments to the flushing routine. The Pav is a tank with a 14 l boiler and huge heat exchangers. The temp profile is virtually flat and stable well past a 60 ml double shot volume, but not easy to adjust once set with the Pstat. I have it set to a range that works for most of my roasts with minimal flushing.

                      So, while the Pav serves for day to day use, a session with the Faema was enlightening. I could dial the taste profile with 0.5 C adjustments. I could highlight a sweetness in the shot by getting to within a 0.5 C range. After that it went either ashy above that or sour below. Aside from taste, the mouthfeel was thick and creamy. I was using the same Bezzera double basket in both machines and it was the Faema that really won me with taste. It still needs more experimenting, but the taste clarity seemed similar to what Id experienced with La Marzocco machines. Nevertheless, I still have had great shots from the Pav, just not as clearly defined flavours.

                      While the Faema is not a Silvia, it is still a single 300 ml boiler machine with the group mounted directly below the boiler (unlike the Silvias offset group).

                      So my take on this is that the HX machines are not necessarily better than single boiler machines, it just depends on the particular machine and how you drive it. That said, there are quite a few comments on how difficult it is to get really great shots from a Silvia, even with a PID (unless youre Andy Schecter with his franken-Silvia).

                      Cheers,

                      Mark.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                        You are welcome almost anytime--just give me a ring to check Im home! Ive PMd you my details.
                        I have a Macap M4D, but you are welcome to lug your Jolly along, I think my kitchen bench is strong enough.
                        Greg

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                          Move the PF around to get it as level and evenly distributed as you can without shaking or bumping the portafilter.

                          Randy, Ive got a rocky with doser. To control the mess, I dispense about 1/2 into the PF and then bump the PF on the bench a few times to level/settle the coffee. I then dispense the rest of the grind into PF, bump/settle again and then Tamp. Your commentary imples this could lead to problems. Can you elaborate - thanks

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                          • #14
                            Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                            just buy a single group synesso. You know you want to

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                              greg
                              a question: have you always had this trouble with your silvia or is this a new issue?
                              if a new issue, then think about what changes youve made to any part of your routine.
                              if its always been a problem, then this points to be being an issue with miss siliva.

                              as you would be well aware, theres no subtle ramp up to full 9 bar pressure with your siliva. so, if you were to compare your silvia with say an E-61, then youre going to get a nicer story with the e-61 with its slow gentle ramp up. and on that note, maybe its worth checking the brew pressure with a pf guage? maybe youre running brew pressure too high and slamming your pucks?

                              you could also try the old 5 cent coin on top of your tamped and polished puck and check out the indent. most ppl like a very small indent of the coin on the top of their puck. this can then rule out too high an updose.

                              hope this helps (although im sure that youve thought about / done all of these things)

                              aaron

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