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Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

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  • #16
    Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

    Im clearly not in the same espresso league as Sparky! I cant say Ive noticed any difference in flavour in adjusting the PID temp but then Ive never sat down and done a series of logical tests. I dont actually have a problem with the taste of the shots I pull, its just that they generally have to be very short otherwise premature blonding is very likely.

    Aaron: Its a bit hard to say. I changed the spouts maybe 12 months ago and its easier to pick blonding now compared to the standard Silvia spouts which would tend to mix everything up as it came into the exposed part of the spout. So I think Im being more picky and stopping shots earlier than I used to, which may also be why my wife now enjoys her lattes without sugar (rather than 2 sugars!). But either way, using the same scrutiny on Epic shots with the same spouts (which I did when I was back there recently) the pours are definitely longer before blonding, noticeably. There wasnt any noticeable difference going from the Mini to the Super Jolly, and I dont recall my own roasted beans as being particularly worse than commercial ones (unless theyre too fresh and they blond very fast). So I guess Im not aware of any significant change at my end which is why Im looking broader for solutions.

    Ive never tested the pressure with a gauge, but some time ago I did do the stall test where you measure the amount of water flowing back through the return hose into the tank when the pumps on and no outlet, and it correlated exactly to the amount on the Ulka site said would be rejected at 9 bar. So it should be at least in the right ballpark. Ive not heard of the 5c coin trick, perhaps you could elaborate?

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    • #17
      Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

      greg - after dosing distributing and tamping, then place a 5c coin on the puck, inset the pf into the grouphead, and remove straight away.
      check what kind of impression the coin makes on the surface of the puck. too big an indent means too high an updose, no impression means you could prob go a little higher in dose

      also with distribution, perhaps you want to try a version of stockfleths move (googles your mate) either with your hand or with your flat knife (eg rotate your knife round the pf instead or back and forth. it prob wont make a huge difference but might be worth a try.

      aaron

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      • #18
        Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

        Randys take on it reminded me of the Feb/March 06 edition of Barista Magazine. In it there is an article on "The dosing debate", by Tim Wendelboe where he argues the merits of a lighter dosing method.

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        • #19
          Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

          Originally posted by argon link=1223035464/0#12 date=1223111750
          Randy, Ive got a rocky with doser.  To control the mess, I dispense about 1/2 into the PF and then bump the PF on the bench a few times to level/settle the coffee. I then dispense the rest of the grind into PF, bump/settle again and then Tamp.  Your commentary imples this could lead to problems.  Can you elaborate - thanks
          It depends on a lot of things, but mainly the grinder/basket/espresso machine combo. For example, Silvia is VERY sensitive to dose while other machines not so much. Silvia benefits from precise weighing of the coffee, at least until a dose is learned, while I found that the with the VBM I can dose, level, and just swipe across the coffee with a SLIGHTLY bent finger. THEN I tap downward on the counter to level and settle as flat as possible before tamping. Then my tamping force can be whatever.

          Te other problem is that one click on the Rocky is about three or even four seconds of pull time difference, so you have very little leeway in adjustment as far as grind goes. Because of that you need to control the dose that much more accurately.

          If after tamping you can lock the PF, remove it and only see the slightest impression of the center screw (if your machine as one) then the height of the coffee is good. Beyond that, all advice should be considered as starting points and modified to meet your needs and situation. But there is nothing wrong with experimenting to find what works best.

          The only two "Rules" are:
          1 - The espresso should taste good to you
          2 - You should always strive to find ways to make it taste better.

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          • #20
            Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

            Greg
            My Silvia is the late model with the hex head dispersion screen screw. I have found extraction improved since replacing this with a countersunk screw. Hope this helps.
            http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/esp...inemods/358287

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            • #21
              Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

              Originally posted by Greg Pullman link=1223035464/0#15 date=1223118407
              Im clearly not in the same espresso league as Sparky! I cant say Ive noticed any difference in flavour in adjusting the PID temp but then Ive never sat down and done a series of logical tests. I dont actually have a problem with the taste of the shots I pull, its just that they generally have to be very short otherwise premature blonding is very likely.
              Im not sure what league Im in, but keeping all other things constant, the PID temp can really affect the taste. It also depends on the bean/blend youre using. For the particular test I ran, I wasnt getting great shots from the Pav, but I found there was a beautiful sweet spot that covered a very narrow temp range, which seemed repeatable.

              I went a bit wide of the mark with my reply, as I see youre only interested in the early blonding phenomenon, which is likely to have a technical solution if the cause can be found.

              Cheers,

              Mark.

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              • #22
                Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                Hey vicroamer - where did you get the countersunk screw?? Whats the thread?

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                • #23
                  Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                  where did you get the countersunk screw??  Whats the thread?
                  Thread size is listed in the link, best you read through it, as the length I used may be to long. Local bolt supplier should stock a S/S countersunk screw and the countersink tool needed, mine did.
                  I found the pour has improved since doing the mod, the transition to blonding being more noticeable, taste has improved, I assume the bolt was causing channeling.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                    Hi Greg,

                    I have a VBM Domobar Super Manual and am extremely pleased with its E-61 forgiveness, teamed with an overflowing double basket (flicked from a doser), NSEW distribution technique (NO tapping), and a marvellous tamper thanks to your team.

                    My previous machine, well below your class, had no forgiveness whatsoever. I produced seriously bad coffee (in retrospect).

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                    • #25
                      Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                      Originally posted by Greg Pullman link=1223035464/0#15 date=1223118407

                      Ive never tested the pressure with a gauge, but some time ago I did do the stall test where you measure the amount of water flowing back through the return hose into the tank when the pumps on and no outlet, and it correlated exactly to the amount on the Ulka site said would be rejected at 9 bar. So it should be at least in the right ballpark. Ive not heard of the 5c coin trick, perhaps you could elaborate?
                      Hi Greg,

                      I have tried the above method also and got what seemed like a satisfactory result, but still seemed to have slightly to very fast pours. Eventually was able to have the brew pressure checked with a pfgage, and it was around 12bar I think.
                      Purchased one of the special thick opv washers from Pedro at Coffeeparts, and extractions improved.
                      Subsequently I made up an adaptor with gage and needle valve to measure pressure with flow through the pf and mine is now set to around 9 bar when it brews.

                      I still notice some variation in the length of pours before blonding occurs, with some still a bit short compared to what I see on many commercial machines. However I rarely roast same beans on consecutive weeks and sometimes I think it can be the beans and roast level contributing to the phenomenon, as well as some of the other factors noted by others.

                      Bullitt

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                      • #26
                        Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                        Well I prepared with my standard technique and loaded and removed. There was a big indentation from the showerscreen screw, however this is a cheese head unit and does protrude somewhat. Since then Ive tried downdosing a bit and grinding a bit finer; have probably done four shots thus far with this setup and the last one persisted quite well, although the previous three werent noticeably different.

                        Ill try to have a better look at the brew pressure to see if thats causing it. I know the overflow method is only an approximation but I presumed it would be better than that!

                        I still may move into a better machine as from everything in this thread and others Ive checked out, there seem to be big improvements moving into E61 territory. But Ill be looking into this a bit more before I make any big decisions.

                        Thanks guys!
                        Greg

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                        • #27
                          Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                          yeah greg - its definitely time for an upgrade.

                          i am having a similar issue to you with my machine (which is fairly similar, just older). and i think that these level machines do make it harder for the operator to achieve good/great results consistently. and one major contributing cause is the full-brew-pressure-as-soon-as-you-hit-the-brew-switch phenomenon.

                          i have my machine being looked at by the Veneziano techie craig, and my feeling is that hell say the brew pressure was too high. could be wrong though.

                          i can achieve some pretty decent shots (at least compared to my home shots) at work. so in my mind, my issues are
                          a. the machine
                          b. my not understanding how to get the best from my machine
                          c. both a + B


                          have fun shopping round for hxs

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                          • #28
                            Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                            Or dual boilers Lets start a war of the words ;D

                            I have just been having a search and read back into some old threads and I am now more confused than normal between HX and Dual Boilers . But the Vibiemme dual PID machine would fit into my Christmas Stocking 8-)

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                            • #29
                              Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                              funny BF - i was going to write DB too...

                              im in your boat at the moment (maybe youre in mine)
                              the ouctome for me will depend on budget.
                              and chris from talk coffe is the man for me - you see, well do a trade; ill give him money, and hell give me a heavy metal object. ill go home and not sleep for a month.

                              a tad OT but hey..for me its...

                              a. La SPaz vivII
                              b. wega mini rotary
                              c. bezzera rotary
                              d. the new brewt rotary

                              a. is the goal but eating is fairly important too

                              have fun

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                              • #30
                                Re: Extraction quality of PID Silvia vs pointy end

                                Greg
                                I remember your original PID posts and your fast pour issues. It looks like a PID hasnt helped in this area. I nearly picked up a PID myself earlier in the year but the money was used for something else :-? now the exchange rate has fallen the PID cost has blown out.
                                Anyway I have experimented with water shock arrestor preinfusion fitted to the group without success, I havent plumbed it in between pump and boiler it may work better there, local arrestors a pretty big and bleed off a far bit of water maybe to much and affect temp stability when attached to the group. My Silvia does pour a bit fast I feel, I seem to recall reading somewhere that Silvia has no flow restriction, if so, then fitting a gicleur could be the way to go for slowing down the pour and preinfusion.
                                Sorry if I have gone a bit OT here.

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