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  • Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

    Hi fellow snobs,

    Long time lurker, first time poster (so please be gentle!)

    After months and months of research I finally bought:

    Rocket Espresso Giotto Premium Plus
    ECM Best Grinder (otherwise known as Anfin I believe)
    Pullman checkerboard tamper
    Accessories (jugs, thermometers, tamp mats and even glasses)

    After ruining 1 kg of coffee (pure user error, nothing to do with the equipment) Ive finally gotten to the stage of making a half decent shot.

    Already have ordered a naked group handle with double (12gm) basket for strong singles and have a heap of other goodies on the way!

    The learnings and feedback Id like to provide on the machine are:

    A. Single baskets are very difficult to get right! Double baskets are much more forgiving!

    B. The amount of coffee I need to put in the basket to get the right pour consistancy (thick honey looking pour) has to be quite exact. I need to work on this a little further.

    C. The cleanup is worth the result!

    In addition, I have a couple of questions: (I have read the tutorials, searched youtube and read various websites)

    1. Coffeebags. Ive ordered some (250gm with zip lock seals and degassing valves) to preserve the life of coffee bought by the kilo as I dont consume this amount within 1 month (i.e. before the coffee goes stale). Good move or bad move? Any other solutions?

    2. Pour times. Im finding it hard to achieve the 25 second pour. Ive tried changing the variables of grind, tamp and freshly ground coffee (roasted and rested for 4-5 days from wholesaler). On this machine, should I be aiming for the 25-30sec pour or is it normal for an 18 sec pour before blonding?

    3. Basket fill amount. I find I need to fill the basket right on the inside line of the basket, and ensure the grounds touch the shower screen to ensure a solid puck, otherwise I get a sloppy puck. But the error margin is so small (between not enough or tamped too hard and not touching the screen vs putting too much or not tamping hard enough and not being able to fasten the group handle) that Im failing on 1 out of 5 attempts. Is this normal or can you offer any advice?

    4. Thermostability upgrade. Read heaps about it, been told so many opposing views about it. Anyone have an unbiased view on this? Is it really worth the $200?

    5. My grinder. Sold a good story when I bought it, but being a spec sheet junkie, Im not sure how good it is as it has stepped adjustments. Is this holding me back?

    6. Steam wand spittle. Im noticing now after 4 weeks of ownership, even after the initial 4-5 second purge that whilst the steam is on, there is quite a bit of spittle (water) flicking off the tip. Is this normal?

    Sorry for all the questions, but thank you for providing your feedback and I look forward to be able to contribute the same in due course!

    Kindest Regards,

    -R

    P.S Pics to follow shortly
    mod edit- font colours removed to improve readability

  • #2
    Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

    Originally posted by 070C0015170D540 link=1245723393/0#0 date=1245723393
    After months and months of research I finally bought:
    Rocket Espresso Giotto Premium Plus
    ECM Best Grinder (otherwise known as Anfin I believe)
    Pullman checkerboard tamper
    Accessories (jugs, thermometers, tamp mats and even glasses)
    Belated welcome and congratulations SXTACY (another classic username).

    Except for the grinder, your setup matches mine. Before addressing your questions:
    A I always use a double basket even if making a single coffee and I find a level 1/4 cup measure provides the right quantity of beans for the double. I also have a naked pf but still use a double - the Synesso basket that came with my Pullman.

    B I find the GPP quite forgiving and even over-extracted shots arent bad.

    C The clean up is easy. I always brush the grouphead then use a blind filter in the naked pf to first jiggle loosely in the head which removes leftover grinds and then do a freshwater backflush very day after I finish. Then do a detergent backflush fortnightly.

    Now your "couple" of questions

    1. The 1-way valve bags wont stop the coffee from losing its freshness after 3 weeks. You can search for one of my recent posts on the heretic crime of freezing. If you are relatively remote and cant get to a roastery weekly then consider buying a popper and greens and trying some home roasting. Then you can roast to your needs.

    2. The 25 sec pour is a guide - dont take it as absolute. However, strongly consider booking yourself into a home barista course one weekend - one where you can use your machine (or a GPP)

    3. See my response to point A above. As I said the GPP is fairly forgiving and, if the grind is right, I dont get sloppy pucks if I under-dose. Once again, consider doing a course so someone can watch you.

    4. The thermo upgrade is more the ECM Giotto - the model before yours. Yours may need some calibration though. Dod you buy from a sponsor?

    5. Not familiar with the Best grinder so not sure if a stepless mod is possible. You still should get a good enough grind I would think.

    6. I do a 1 - 2 second purge on the steam wand of mine and no, it doesnt drip. Doesnt sound right. Contact your vendor and if they cant/wont help, contact a sponsor.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

      Thanks flynn_aus!

      Originally posted by 606A7F6868677375060 link=1245723393/1#1 date=1245727339
      The 1-way valve bags wont stop the coffee from losing its freshness after 3 weeks.
      I was under the impression the 1kg bags I buy from the roaster which have a one way valve have a shelf life of around 6 months? Is this right? (because it was the basis of my second response).

      The 2nd logical thought was if I could re-bag the beans into smaller quantities, I should be able to preserve the same conditions (give or take) under which the beans were bought and therefore enjoy a shelf life in line with my consumption pattern. Wrong?

      Originally posted by 606A7F6868677375060 link=1245723393/1#1 date=1245727339
      2.The 25 sec pour is a guide- dont take it as absolute. However, strongly consider booking yourself into a home barista course one weekend - one where you can use your machine (or a GPP)
      I actually did a course before I bought the machine, but unfortunately it was using commercial machines. The one domestic machine I used whilst I was there was a VBM which I enjoyed using, and hence the research and eventual purchase of the Giotto. Im hoping I can "refine" my technique rather than spend another $200 or so on a course.

      Originally posted by 606A7F6868677375060 link=1245723393/1#1 date=1245727339
      Yours may need some calibration though. Dod you buy from a sponsor?
      No, I actually didnt as I was offered an unbelievable price from someone else. But I will definitely have a chat to them about the spittle and see what their response is (their service has been great so far).

      I was told the calibration is done by the importer/factory and it doesnt need any further mods, Im hoping this is the case or Ill have to have a chat to them about getting the best out of my machine...

      So should I assume the 18-20sec pour Im currently doing is incorrect and I should be aiming for a 22-25 second pour? The time is measured from lifting the lever, with output beginning 6-9 seconds afterwards.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

        Originally posted by 7A717D686A70290 link=1245723393/2#2 date=1245729303
        I was under the impression the 1kg bags I buy from the roaster which have a one way valve have a shelf life of around 6 months?
        The bags will definitely last that long but not the contents. Most beans will arent that good after 3 weeks - you might stretch it to a month if you are lucky.
        Originally posted by 7A717D686A70290 link=1245723393/2#2 date=1245729303
        I was told the calibration is done by the importer/factory
        Yes, that would be ECA and its my understanding as well.

        Originally posted by 7A717D686A70290 link=1245723393/2#2 date=1245729303
        So should I assume the 18-20sec pour Im currently doing is incorrect and I should be aiming for a 22-25 second pour? The time is measured from lifting the lever, with output beginning 6-9 seconds afterwards.
        Not necessarily. Ive had pours <20 seconds and pours >30 seconds that have tasted OK. The time is measured from when you raise the lever.


        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

          Originally posted by 616A6673716B320 link=1245723393/2#2 date=1245729303
          1kg bags I buy from the roaster which have a one way valve have a shelf life of around 6 months?
          The accepted "shelf life" of roasted coffee is around 3-4 weeks (some even consider this too long). Solution: Buy green from beanbay and roast your own in the quantities you require.

          There are some who buy in quantities and freeze smaller quantities as they cant get fresh very often, they are happy with the results but fresh is better.
          Originally posted by 616A6673716B320 link=1245723393/2#2 date=1245729303
          Im hoping I can "refine" my technique rather than spend another $200 or so on a course.
          Up to you I am a fan of doing a course practicing get better on my own. Then going and doing another course learn some more, refine, etc etc etc. This could just be getting to know snobs or roasters and pumping them for information but the help of others will push you faster than if you stumble along on your own.
          Originally posted by 616A6673716B320 link=1245723393/2#2 date=1245729303
          I was told the calibration is done by the importer/factory and it doesnt need any further mods, Im hoping this is the case or Ill have to have a chat to them about getting the best out of my machine...
          In the case of the two commercial machines I have bought I have had to calibrate both of them for boiler pressure and pump pressure so assume nothing.

          I stand corrected

          Originally posted by 616A6673716B320 link=1245723393/2#2 date=1245729303
          So should I assume the 18-20sec pour Im currently doing is incorrect and I should be aiming for a 22-25 second pour? The time is measured from lifting the lever, with output beginning 6-9 seconds afterwards.
          The golden "guideline" is 30mls in 30sec (single basket) or 60ml in 30 sec from a double. 5 sec from water hitting the puck is around right but 18-20 is too fast. Adjust grind, tamp or dosage one at a time until you are happy.

          Hope that helps, there is a lot more info in the forum if you have the time or want more detail.


          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

            Originally posted by 69626E7B79633A0 link=1245723393/0#0 date=1245723393
            B. The amount of coffee I need to put in the basket to get the right pour consistency (thick honey looking pour) has to be quite exact. I need to work on this a little further.
            Welcome SXTACY
            You will need to experiment with you tamp depth level unique to your machine so the tamped puck is a hairs whisker from the Group Head shower screen when the
            porta-filter handle is locked in

            On your Pullman tamper you will see a few lines on the side
            These lines are used as guides for level & depth

            As an example I need to tamp 8mm in depth to clear the filter screen on my machine

            The tamper guide lines are spaced 2mm apart I think ?

            So try that first and then experiment with grind and tamp pressure to get to 25/30 seconds pour

            KK

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

              Originally posted by 353F2A3D3D322620530 link=1245723393/3#3 date=1245729969
              The bags will definitely last that longSmiley but not the contents. Most beans will arent that good after 3 weeks - you might stretch it to a month if you are lucky
              Bugger... just wasted $50 on bags! Even the coffee bag place said this would work and I would definately be able to preserve the shelf life of the coffee beans to the 6 month mark atleast (was advised the shelf life of the coffee beans in the 1kg bag from the roaster should have a shelf life of 6-12 months).

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

                Originally posted by 535D505F485E5F310 link=1245723393/4#4 date=1245730195
                Buy green from beanbay and roast your own in the quantities you require.
                Will definately do this as I get better in my skills and appreciation, but at present, I dont think I could out do or even match a roaster with 13 years experience. He uses some custom blend which I really like, so I rekon either I up my consumption or find a few people to divvy the beans with for the time being!

                Originally posted by 535D505F485E5F310 link=1245723393/4#4 date=1245730195
                The golden "guideline" is 30mls in 30sec (single basket) or 60ml in 30 sec from a double. 5 sec from water hitting the puck is around right but 18-20 is too fast.
                Okay, back to the drawing board! Hehe... thanks, I will work on increasing the fineness of the grind first, as 18-20 sec is the best shot I can get at the moment (have tried other variables one at a time without success, tamping harder chokes the machine)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

                  Originally posted by 5F54584D4F550C0 link=1245723393/6#6 date=1245731149
                  Bugger... just wasted $50 on bags! Even the coffee bag place said this would work and I would definately be able to preserve the shelf life of the coffee beans to the 6 month mark atleast (was advised the shelf life of the coffee beans in the 1kg bag from the roaster should have a shelf life of 6-12 months).
                  I am sure these recommendations were not made by coffee snobs
                  They may be well meaning but uninformed people

                  Remember you are a coffee snob now and your education to better coffee starts now

                  KK

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

                    Originally posted by 06222B2B28281206223E20224D0 link=1245723393/5#5 date=1245730518
                    On your Pullman tamper you will see a few lines on the side
                    These lines are used as guides for level & depth
                    Excellent! Learning everyday... Ill use these lines from now on. I thought they were just decoration up until now!

                    Thanks for your help... pulling shots tonight!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

                      Originally posted by 557178787B7B4155716D73711E0 link=1245723393/8#8 date=1245731417
                      I am sure these recommendations were not made by coffee snobs
                      They may be well meaning but uninformed people
                      No, definately not coffee snobs, but now I think business snobs!

                      I might call them up and see if I can cancel the order considering it was sold to me for a specific purpose, which I am learning can not be achieved.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

                        Originally posted by 545F5346445E070 link=1245723393/0#0 date=1245723393
                        is it normal for an 18 sec pour before blonding?
                        Different things can affect the speed of a pour.
                        If you want to slow it down you need to change them.
                        But only one of them at a time until you find a repeatable process.

                        To go from an 18 second pour to a longer one you could:
                        * Grind finer (gives more resistance to the water flow as there is less space between the grinds).
                        * Put more coffee in the basket (gives more resistance to the water flow as there is more coffee in its way).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

                          Thanks thundergod,

                          Originally posted by 1F233E252F2E392C242F4B0 link=1245723393/11#11 date=1245731829
                          Grind finer (gives more resistance to the water flow as there is less space between the grinds).
                          Last I tried to go finer, I tamped less and choked the machine, that was adjusting the grind the minimum amount from course -> fine (on the ECA Best, there are numbered settings with 0.5 increments, so I went from 4 to 3.5). So obviously Im not doing something right... just have to figure out what...

                          Originally posted by 5A667B606A6B7C69616A0E0 link=1245723393/11#11 date=1245731829
                          Put more coffee in the basket (gives more resistance to the water flow as there is more coffee in its way).
                          Im already putting in enough to touch the shower screen, and on 1 out of 5 times, putting too much in (or not tamping enough) and therefore not being able to lock in the group handle...

                          But Ill try again, this time more conscious of what Im trying to achieve... appreciate your help and thanks!

                          Ahh the joys of learning!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

                            Re calibration:

                            We have found that some 2008 build machines (black on brushed silver name plate) can be improved with a little judicious Scace work- as can almost all other brands. Note that they require far less work than the Giotto Premium for example.

                            There are about 3 very slightly different GPP configurations leading to a degree or two up or down dependent on build date. Like all other importers, ECA worked with Rocket and the later the build, the better the machines got.

                            Recent 2009 build machines- recognisable by silver on black name plates front and back have been perfect and the only thing we have been doing is offering a custom gliceur on request for clients who promise to use ONLY filtered, softened coffee quality water...

                            Hope that clarifies a few things

                            Chris

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus - Feedback and Questions

                              Thanks Chris, was waiting for you to chime in!


                              Originally posted by 7045484F7B674B42424141240 link=1245723393/13#13 date=1245734132
                              can be improved with a little judicious Scace work
                              With respect to the 2008 builds, after your "judicious Scace work" what differences are there and are they any easier/quicker/cheaper than the full blown $200 thermostability upgrade?

                              Im a little disappointed to learn mine is the 2008 build when I was told mine was the latest build, and bought only 4 weeks ago.

                              Ill definately be ringing up the vendor to quiz them about this!

                              Comment

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