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Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

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  • #16
    Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

    What can I say but TALK TO BERNARD (at Bombora). Ive had some great advice and am very happy that my filter & softener combo was designed for my water supply and my coffee machine.

    And the price was less than 10% the cost of the machine.

    Greg

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    • #17
      Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

      Heres an update.

      I did the descale using the Caffetto descale solution as I could not get the Bombora stuff soon enough as I wanted to get the job done ASAP. I did it Saturday night and it took 4 hours plus 1.5 hours of flushing the next morning!!!!

      Results - excellent - scale gone from mushroom and the boiler/machine as well. See pics below plus END RESULT section.

      There must have been a fair bit of scale in the whole machine because the water out of the group, steam wand, and hot water wand came out bluish green for quite some time during the process. I followed Randy Gs guide (thank you Randy) but BE FORWARNED!!!!!

      There was water everywhere during steps 20-24 on page 36. Water/descale solution came out of the valve behind the BOILER pressure gauge when doing the brew/group head flush(step 20).
      Water/descale solution also came out of the valve behind the BREW pressure gauge when doing the hot water wand flush(step 24). It was EASY to hold this valve up with pliers - I think this is the anti-vac valve, not sure  :-/ but doesnt matter.
      Doing the steam wand was OK with no leakage from valves.


      The water with descale solution going everywhere was OK as I dont think the Caffetto stuff is that hazardous - I had not skin irritation but kept my face well away plus I had eye protection (glasses  ;D)
      Dont know about the Bombora stuff though, maybe Dennis/Bernard can chime in and advise.

      After descale I had to flush a hell of a lot of water through the whole machine the next morning as I still had that acidic taste coming out of the steam wand, group head and hot water wand. I went thru 3 water reservoirs but think the 3rd was just to be sure.

      END RESULT:
      - no more flickering brew pressure gauge - stable now
      - temp has improved - boiler gauge was between .9 and 1.2 before descale. Now its 1.0 to 1.25  
      - more steam power now, Id say about 20% more - I use to do my morning milk for latte in about 12 secs. Now its down to about 8! Scary I tell you as now you have to be on the ball even more than the 12 secs which is crazy fast anyway  

      Can Randy/Dennis/Chris (Talk Coffee) please chime in and advise if the water spray during the steps advised above is normal and if so what they did to prevent it.

      All in all a worthwhile exercise for sure but one worth trying to prevent/reduce the time to do it as it was painful in my experience.

      Javabeen.



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      • #18
        Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

        Originally posted by 7175534A4A4F504748260 link=1252582960/12#12 date=1252657646
        Little unsure where to go after reading this, monday ill be picking up my GPP,  
        Ive owned a few machines and I killed a Gaggia after 12 months of just tap water use. I know Gaggia have aluminum boilers as opposed to these HX beasts but that taught me my lesson about water quality and scale. As I mentioned, I installed a proper filtration/scale inhibition system myself after talking to Bernard from Bombora in June this year. This is all because of my concerns around scale build up.

        Its a no brainer really, just get the filtration system. You can see from my post descale pics that some of the silver (chrome Im guessing) has come off and exposed the bare metal under it. Hope this is nothing serious.

        Or at least have a plan to buy and install a filtration system (with scale inhibition) in the next 2 months.

        Now to insulate my boiler, wheres that Armaflex HT I bought... ;D

        All the best
        Javabeen descaling  

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        • #19
          Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

          Originally posted by 6763455C5C5946515E300 link=1252582960/12#12 date=1252657646
          would that keep the scale at bay? or would it harm the machine, or not have the desired effec
          Chris or others might confirm this but doesnt the GPP rely on a certain level of solutes for the water level detection system to function properly? If you use water that is too pure, you may find that the machine wont function as it thinks the tank needs filling. Correct?

          I think we also need to think about the water quality in your area plus the quantity of coffee you will be making when making the decision to go for a descale? Greg lives in Adelaide where the water is fairly ha

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          • #20
            Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

            Originally posted by 5C57405754535358360 link=1252582960/17#17 date=1252902899
            I installed a proper filtration/scale inhibition system myself after talking to Bernard from Bombora in June this year.
            I am also looking at something at the moment for my Giotto, i descaled the unit using caffetto about a month ago but i think i will do it again in a month or so more once i have a filtration system in.
            From all accounts Greg is the guinea pig on a potential solution.

            Mal

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            • #21
              Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

              hahaha great....
              Just before I read this post I have placed a bid on evil bay
              for a brita on tap filter.

              ....oh dear...

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                Originally posted by 5F55405757584C4A390 link=1252582960/18#18 date=1252913547
                Chris or others might confirm this but doesnt the GPP rely on a certain level of solutes for the water level detection system to function properly? If you use water that is too pure, you may find that the machine wont function as it thinks the tank needs filling. Correct?
                That is correct. I had this problem with my Giotto using water that was too pure. I added a little bit of tap water into the tank with the pure water and voila, problem solved.

                An now for a question ;D.

                Is the condition of the group head chamber and mushroom a good indicator of the condition of the inside of the boiler?
                I only ask as I pulled out my mushroom a few weeks ago and both it and the chamber were absolutely spotless  8-), and I was hoping that the innards of the boiler would be the same :-?.
                Thanks,
                Steve.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                  Err....please people, take lots of care. My town water is notoriously soft and I use a water softner and for some reason I was convinced that I didnt need to descale that often...

                  Here I am, 21 months later (!!! how did I leave it so long ???) and javabeens post prompted me to have a look.

                  I hope nothing is seriously damaged in there. Ive notice the thermosyphon sometimes stops. Im guessing its got some scale in there. Its getting a mammoth descale as we speak.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                    WOW pardon my ignorance as im new to e61 machines, but what is that im looking at? :as in what part

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                    • #25
                      Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                      Im not totally sure what it does, but its a plug thats at the top. So looking at the machine, at the very top of the grouphead there is a big hex nut with allen bolts on either side, remove the two allen bolts and this is what you pull out

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                      • #26
                        Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                        Originally posted by 0105233A3A3F203738560 link=1252582960/23#23 date=1253075785
                        WOW Shocked pardon my ignorance as im new to e61 machines, but what is that im looking at? Roll Eyesas in what part  
                        That is called or referred to as an E61 Mushroom

                        KK

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                        • #27
                          Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                          Hmm when I follow the descaling instructions, particularly

                          "16) Place a suitable container under the hot water wand. Open the hot water valve and turn the power switch to
                          Position I. Pump about 16 ounces of solution through the wand. Turn the Power Switch to Position 0 and then
                          close the hot water tap and unplug the machine."

                          I get water coming out of this little valve bit (attached)

                          Ive got lots of hot water tap pumping through to get past before I finish... is this normal? it all pooled up inside the chassis at the bottom of the machine, so I dont think so, Im doing my best to keep it dry though.

                          On the parts diagram its called a mercury outlet valve whatever that is, the picture in the diagram looks a little different to whats in mine too  :-?



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                          • #28
                            Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                            guh done two full flushes with a 3hr wait in between and still getting loads of black flakey crap coming out.... better look a little nicer next time, I need to finish this thing and go to sleep so I can get up and have a coffee  

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                            • #29
                              Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                              Originally posted by 073539392127540 link=1252582960/26#26 date=1253085195
                              I get water coming out of this little valve bit (attached)
                              That I believe is the anti-vac valve. The pin bit gets loose when the machine is cold/boiler is not up to pressure and gets pushed out as the boiler comes to temp/pressure.

                              You need to hold it up with a pair of pliers or your hand and that will stop the water coming out.

                              Careful with flushing the group head without the water level sensor attached as you will get water/descale solution everywhere as it exist the other valve at the bottom of your picture of the hex nut thingy jutting out the top of the boiler - I think its some sort of boiler overfill/safety valve. This was recommended in Randy Gs 1st line manual version 7a and got me into some trouble. Randy has provided instructions that supersede some of these steps in his post here (the link is http://www.1st-line.com/cofffact/vibiemme_descaling.htm).

                              I dont think Ill be flushing/backflushing the group head without the water level sensor attached next time.

                              Cheers
                              Javabeen

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                              • #30
                                Re: Scale in my VBM Super - have a look, ouch!

                                Originally posted by 63515D5D4543300 link=1252582960/27#27 date=1253102074
                                guh done two full flushes with a 3hr wait in between and still getting loads of black flakey crap coming out....
                                What brand of descaler did you use? I wonder if those flakes you mention could get jammed anywhere...youd hope not! :-/

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