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  • Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Long time lurker first time poster.

    I have had a Giotto for the last 6 or so months and have been having some probelms with the water temp at the brew head.

    The machine is still pressure cycling between 1.08 and 1.3 bar but if I run water out of the brew head I can drink it straight away. That leads me to think its not a problem with the boiler pressure?

    It was returned to where I purchased it from approx 3 months ago and for the same problem and received some of the worst service I have ever experienced and was basically told they were no longer interested in servicing it and to take it elsewhere in the future.

    Not sure of what to do now seeing as I am experiencing the same problem?

    It seems like a pretty easy fix if all it requires is turning up the thermostat?

    Any advice or has anyone else experienced the same problems.

    Help........ :-[

  • #2
    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    If you dispense water from the hot water tap, is that still really hot? It should be above boiling point with a lot of noise and steam. Is the steam tap producing steam? If so, it isnt a boiler temp problem.
    That suggests it might be the brew temp needs adjustment. It could be other causes. It is hard for us to judge without seeing the machine.

    Have a look at the list of sponsors on the left and pick one near where you live and get them to have a look.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

      Gday tomb and welcome,

      The definitive answer will be to find a tech with a Scace II who can do an accurate brew temperature check.

      Your pressurestat is as expected and in a machine operating as expected will deliver circa 94 deg. at the puck. You should be able to drink the espresso straight away, so if youre expecting to wait while it cools, you will be disappointed. Cool espresso from freshly roasted beans will deliver sour, watery espresso with pale crema from a good dose and normal pour rate. This is another way of picking a cool shot.

      Turning up the pressurestat is not the answer. Many Australians are accustomed to drinking tea at near boiling, so we need a more definitive test.

      If youre in Melbourne, were happy to run a test and report for you. Quite a few Sydney sponsors also have Scace II devices.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

        Yeah no the steam pressure is still quite good and the hot water tap all seems as it should be.

        Is adjusting the brew temp as simple as popping the cover off and adjusting it via the black control box?

        Also I would like to get to the bottom of the problem, is this a know issue with some giottos? I have done a lot of searching but cant come up with much....

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

          Originally posted by 02373A3D09153930303333560 link=1330761829/2#2 date=1330769238
          Gday tomb and welcome,

          The definitive answer will be to find a tech with a Scace II who can do an accurate brew temperature check.

          Your pressurestat is as expected and in a machine operating as expected will deliver circa 94 deg. at the puck. You should be able to drink the espresso straight away, so if youre expecting to wait while it cools, you will be disappointed. Cool espresso from freshly roasted beans will deliver sour, watery espresso with pale crema from a good dose and normal pour rate. This is another way of picking a cool shot.

          Turning up the pressurestat is not the answer. Many Australians are accustomed to drinking tea at near boiling, so we need a more definitive test.

          If youre in Melbourne, were happy to run a test and report for you. Quite a few Sydney sponsors also have Scace II devices.
          Thanks for the offer, unfortunately Im in Brisbane so will have to hunt around up here for someone with a Scace.

          I have only been able to pour sour shots for the last 2 weeks and its getting progressively worse. Now it is quite litterlaly impossible to make a bitter shot, I had a play before and pouring 40 ml from a 18gr vst up dosed to 21 grams in 40 seconds is still coming out cold and sour.

          Looks like it will be going back for a service and hopefully determine the root of the problem.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

            Originally posted by 4C57555A380 link=1330761829/3#3 date=1330769479
            Is adjusting the brew temp as simple as popping the cover off and adjusting it via the black control box?

            Also I would like to get to the bottom of the problem, is this a know issue with some giottos? I have done a lot of searching but cant come up with much....
            Unfortunately its not that simple in a HX! There is no thermostat and the control box basically turns element and solenoids on and off in relation to switches. The pressurestat controls the boiler pressure and hence boiler temp. Some nutters (said with admiration!) will be able to calculate specific temps based on that but not me!

            The group temp is related to both HX coil flow, boiler temp and group head thermal mass. The group is related to thermosyphon flow throughout the E61 system, which could be blocked but Im guessing. These are all my own terms put together from reading, so I may be making some experts recoil but the point is there are many things that could be affecting it.

            Dont limit your search to Giottos but look for this issue in E61s. Also how long since it was descaled? Is it on a filter? How long do you leave it till first shot?

            Hopefully that helps a bit but you may have to end up taking it into a good servicer anyway.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

              Originally posted by 4A51535C3E0 link=1330761829/3#3 date=1330769479
              Also I would like to get to the bottom of the problem, is this a know issue with some giottos?

              The answer is no. Ive had my Giotto Premium Plus for the best part of 3 years and it has served me flawlessly.

              You say you have had a Giotto for the last 6 months. As it sounds like you bought it new, I assume it is a Premium Plus. The reason you havent read of problems is that it is very good quality machinery. Failures are rare and often due to incorrect operation or maintenance.

              As I said, we dont have enough info to give a qualified response. You didnt explain why the place you bought it from refused to service it.

              As iaindb and Talk Coffee have suggested, it is not a straightforward adjustment and you should have proper measuring equipment to do it properly. If you dont know what you are doing, take it somewhere. We dont know where you bought it but there are sponsors in Qld such as Supreme Roasters or Coffee Roasters Australia.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

                Yes it is a premium plus and was purchased new.

                I did not purchase it from a sponsor and wont go into details about the probelms I experienced except to say that it turns out that the people I bought it off are a lot better at being sales men then they are at after sales service / customer contact.

                I had probelms with the machine from the initial bench test, the lever was sticking / catching / grinding during the bench test which I was told wasnt a problem by the people that sold it to me. Had I been more experienced that probably would have set off a red flag with me.

                I usually give the machine 40 mins to 1 hour plus before pulling a shot.

                The machine itself is back flushed at the end of every day without fail and chemical back flushed after every kilo of coffee (approx once a week). I do not have a under sink filter but do use a filter jug, I have read that these may or may not be effective so that could be a cause of scale build but I wouldnt think so after such a short period of time?

                As I said looks like Ill be sending it back to one of the sponsors to get things looked at.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

                  Yes 6 months is enough for scale to build up in some places but I dont know what Bris water is like.

                  Make sure the servicer is willing to show you it working well and not just turn it around. This means they need a bit of coffee making skills as well as maintenance skills

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

                    Playing the devils advocate and not being facetious. Who says there is a problem?

                    What if there isnt anything wrong and the owner is under a misunderstanding (often occurs from newcomers reading too much into these internet discussions).

                    We havent been told why the service agent dosent want to see the machine again. Perhaps he feels he has spent time looking for something where there isnt anything wrong, and where he cant recoup income for time spent?

                    Your only course of action I am afraid is to return to your repairer and ask them to check the machine for the reasons given, and of course ask them to explain to you whatever they do or dont find. If you are nice, there is no reason why they wont be nice back, no?

                    In view of the fact there is no indication there really is a problem, it is premature to discuss turning up thermostats or any other kind of intervention. The machine doesnt have a "thermostat" as such, you cannot adjust anything in the black box, and no intervention should be performed by unquailifed persons especially while it is under guarantee as it is the quickest way to render the guarantee null and void.

                    Hope that helps.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

                      Have to admit that I am with Attilio on this one.

                      The description of the hot water and steam performance is of a machine operating normally.

                      Notwithstanding a production issue where there is a completely blocked thermosyphon due to the fitment of a dud restrictor, the only other possible issue is scale leading to the same outcome. Both of these would be almost immediately evident to a competent tech.

                      As previously mentioned, the use of a Scace device would provide clear verification of a good shot temperature and correctly configured machine.

                      Lots of old skool places still serve thermonuclear espresso in oven hot cups- neither of which are desirable as an espresso shot should be able to be consumed immediately. It sort of reminds me of the not too distant past:

                      "Ill have a _______, and can you make it nice and HOT please"?

                      "Well I can make it nice, or I can make it hot. What would you prefer"? :-?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

                        Just a comment on water hardness. I am in Ipswich so our water is most likely same as Brisbane. I am not a chemist -not even an apprentice! But I do have access to an instrument that gives some idea of water hardness. I get the following readings: Pure rain water 0, tap water 60ppm, after Britta jug filtering 30ppm. Water from hotwater tap on Giotto 130ppm. This is after about 6 months from new and I do bleed some water from the boiler. I have not yet done a descale. This is just to show how much the hardness can increase by the concentration of chemicals in the boiler through boiling off steam. My understanding is that 0-60 is soft, 61-120 is Moderately hard, 121-180 is hard and above 180 is very hard. I am sure that someone a lot more knowledgeable than me can assist further.
                        As to the temp, I can drink (just) a shot from my Rocket PP soon after pouring. And yes I do preheat the grouphandle and the shot glass.
                        Caution: I am only new to this coffee game. So treat what I have said with due consideration.
                        Regards Noel

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

                          Originally posted by 75595F48515D380 link=1330761829/11#11 date=1331172012
                          This is just to show how much the hardness can increase by the concentration of chemicals in the boiler through boiling off steam.

                          Always try to regularly run off some hot water from the tap to cycle fresher water in the boiler. I try to run at least a cupful every day or 2.

                          Once a month, turn off the machine and (carefully) drain as much water from the boiler as possible via the hot water tap. Tilt the machine the right to get more water to drain out.

                          Empty the water tank and fill with fresh filtered water, then turn the Giotto on again.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

                            Thanks for the tips on draining the tank.

                            I was doing the cup every day or so, but not the rest. Will from now on though.

                            Noel

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

                              Since were talking about brew temps, my Giotto decided not to heat up last week. A quick resistance check ( yes by a qualified elec) showed the element fine, but control board dead. I had a service agent supply and fit it. The functional check was to electrically check the board was getting power, Check, job done. When hed left, I reassembled the G , carried it into the kitchen and switched her on.

                              About five minutes later there is steam belting out from the boiler pressure relief valve, gauge showing in excess of 2 bar. Normally sits around 1.25. Boiler was hot, dam hot. There doesnt seem to be any change if the pressure stat is wound all the way in or all the way out.

                              Any suggestions?

                              Comment

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