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  • HX vs dual boiler

    I have searched past posts on this topic but have not found anything helpful. I am getting the impression that an HX machine is better than a dual boiler for the under $3000 bracket. I am looking at Giotto/Vibiemme vs Expobar. What is the difference? apart from Expobar being cheaper. Does a dual boiler take longer to heat up? We are mainly looking for a machine to produce good microfoam for up to six cups. And hopefully a machine that will last us a long time. Hope you can help me decide.

  • #2
    Re: HX vs dual boiler

    Originally posted by MM link=1185186362/0#0 date=1185186362
    I have searched past posts on this topic but have not found anything helpful. I am getting the impression that an HX machine is better than a dual boiler for the under $3000 bracket.  I am looking at Giotto/Vibiemme vs Expobar. What is the difference? apart from Expobar being cheaper. Does a dual boiler take longer to heat up? We are mainly looking for a machine to produce good microfoam for up to six cups. And hopefully a machine that will last us a long time. Hope you can help me decide.
    Hi MM, I sell them all and have great deals on Giotto and VBM post Aroma....For steam grunt, VBM or pimped Giotto, then Giotto in standard form, then Minore...

    All are great, but subtly different...

    Id be delighted to discuss them with you...

    Chris

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: HX vs dual boiler

      The MinoreII at Aroma was pulling better shots on average than the VBM with the same beans. Probably had to do with being better tuned to suit the blend being used. The big drawcard with the MinoreII is brewing temperature control.

      That being said, under different circumstances, where the VBM was tuned to suit the blend as well, it would have performed much better.

      However, there was no issue with steaming capability. I did take note that the knobs on the VBM seemed a bit small for my liking, and I dont have huge hands. The MinoreII didnt have too much trouble steaming either.

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      • #4
        Re: HX vs dual boiler

        Originally posted by nunu link=1185186362/0#2 date=1185188674
        The MinoreII at Aroma was pulling better shots on average than the VBM with the same beans.  Probably had to do with being better tuned to suit the blend being used.  The big drawcard with the MinoreII is brewing temperature control.

        That being said, under different circumstances, where the VBM was tuned to suit the blend as well, it would have performed much better.

        However, there was no issue with steaming capability.  I did take note that the knobs on the VBM seemed a bit small for my liking, and I dont have huge hands.  The MinoreII didnt have too much trouble steaming either.
        The Minore is a terrific machine- but complex...The more bits, the more to go wrong....They do work very well though  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]. In the not too distant future there will be a competitor which will take it right up to the Minore and will provide some VERY serious competition...  :-X

        For me though, gimme HX- simple, easy to repair and in good hands the real world results are great....

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: HX vs dual boiler

          Im all for semi-auto HX machines. Would be nice with the added bonus of brew temp and pressure control.

          After having a tinker, Im not really sold on E61. Maybe it grows on you, but I really prefer my traditional group sans pre-infusion.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: HX vs dual boiler

            Maybe I should be posting this in the next section down, the extreme machines.... but my Grimac is an off-the-shelf, no pmping, no electronic temperature control HX machine.

            And the extraction temperature profile is still amazingly flat. Unfortunately my multimeter temperature readout has no decimal places.

            But the temperature throughout the 30" stays either flat on 93° ..or flashes to 94° ever so briefly and then back to 93°.

            The point is, when you have very good design and engineering as a starting point, you dont need expensive electronics to compensate for shortcomings.

            --Robusto

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: HX vs dual boiler

              I agree Robusto, good design is what its all about...

              Just to pick up on one point, I downsell the pimped Giotto as its a great machine out of the box. Pimping improves it a touch, but its by no means neccessary. All it does is decrease the cooling flush and allow a little higher boiler pressure.

              One of the bonuses is that with more time on the bench (2 hours), it ensures that every aspect of the machine is adjusted to ensure its perfect. Imagine it as somewhat like the process of blueprinting of a car engine.

              Chris

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: HX vs dual boiler

                As I understand it --if indeed I do? ---2MCM, the Giotto was desgined and made to be top of its class, no compromises. Especially in style.

                Pimping the Giotto can only be the icing on an already considerable cake.

                Whereas the Minore tried to emulate the Giotto, with the added attraction of dual boilers and electronic control.

                But could only offer that package by cutting corners to come out at around the same price.

                I believe some of the Mark I problems have since been corrected in Mark II..

                --Robusto

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                • #9
                  Re: HX vs dual boiler

                  Originally posted by robusto link=1185186362/0#7 date=1185194975
                  As I understand it --if indeed I do? ---2MCM, the Giotto was desgined and made to be top of its class, no compromises.  Especially in style.

                  Pimping the Giotto can only be the icing on an already considerable cake.

                  Whereas the Minore tried to emulate the Giotto, with the added attraction of dual boilers and electronic control.  

                  But could  only offer that package by  cutting corners to come out at around the same price.

                  I believe some of the Mark I problems have since been corrected in Mark II..

                  --Robusto
                  Correct you are Robusto. There have been "issues" with a number of Minore II as well. Expobar Australia assure that these are in hand now so there is no reason to hold off on a new Minore. Our 240V varies between 220something and 250+ depending on where you are- as I understand things. Some electronics are not keen on that variation...

                  What I like about the HX machines is the KISS principle. In simplicity comes reliability and good desgn ensures that they should do what they should. In my experience there have been very few issues with the Italian machines- all HX....Look under the bonnet, and you see mainly fresh air- 60s Holden style...

                  On the other hand, lift the hood of a dual boiler and its a very different world. If you go for complexity, you need to be prepared that you may have to accept higher cost of ownership....We all know that

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: HX vs dual boiler

                    Thank you for your info. This clarifies many of my questions.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: HX vs dual boiler

                      Originally posted by robusto link=1185186362/0#7 date=1185194975
                      Whereas the Minore tried to emulate the Giotto, with the added attraction of dual boilers and electronic control.  
                      Not really. The Minore is a very workmanlike design without the bling looks of the Giotto but SLIGHTLY better ultimate temp control at a lower price.

                      I believe that the Giotto is totally plumbed with copper tubing inside from the pump onwards while the Minore uses some plastic tubing in the pumped plumbing. Whether this makes any difference at all is highly debatable (with arguments favouring both approaches).

                      At the end of the day, both are fine machines.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: HX vs dual boiler

                        Originally posted by kaanage link=1185186362/0#10 date=1185241136
                        Originally posted by robusto link=1185186362/0#7 date=1185194975
                        Whereas the Minore tried to emulate the Giotto, with the added attraction of dual boilers and electronic control.  
                        Not really. The Minore is a very workmanlike design without the bling looks of the Giotto but SLIGHTLY better ultimate temp control at a lower price.

                        I believe that the Giotto is totally plumbed with copper tubing inside from the pump onwards while the Minore uses some plastic tubing in the pumped plumbing. Whether this makes any difference at all is highly debatable (with arguments favouring both approaches).

                        At the end of the day, both are fine machines.
                        To correct you Greg, the Giotto uses teflon tube around the pump as well. This is the norm and is done to decrease noise due to vibration.

                        Chris

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: HX vs dual boiler

                          Ah OK. That makes sense (I was wondering how they would isolate the vibrations).

                          But the Minore uses more teflon tubing from all the pics Ive seen of the 2 (+ my inspection of its sibling the Leva). In any case, the mainly copper tubing used in the Sylvia is often touted as an advantage over the teflon tubing used in most other domestic machines but I think any advantage one way or the other is debatable.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: HX vs dual boiler

                            Originally posted by kaanage link=1185186362/0#10 date=1185241136
                            Originally posted by robusto link=1185186362/0#7 date=1185194975
                            Whereas the Minore tried to emulate the Giotto, with the added attraction of dual boilers and electronic control.  
                            Not really. The Minore is a very workmanlike design without the bling looks of the Giotto but SLIGHTLY better ultimate temp control at a lower price.

                            I believe that the Giotto is totally plumbed with copper tubing inside from the pump onwards while the Minore uses some plastic tubing in the pumped plumbing. Whether this makes any difference at all is highly debatable (with arguments favouring both approaches).

                            At the end of the day, both are fine machines.
                            ?????  You begin by saying "not really" to my post , and then proceed to agree with what you  have just disagreed?   :-/

                            -Robusto

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: HX vs dual boiler

                              Again, not really. I dont think the Minore targets the bling aspect of the Giotto.

                              And I dont think the standard Giotto is notably different in performance to other e-61 HX machines - steaming differences between HX machines usually comes down to the steam tip supplied and in shot differences tend to be due to different baskets supplied.

                              Ergonomics are a whole other area that can be debated.

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