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Minore II with PID = Minore III

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  • #16
    Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

    Originally posted by roknee link=1227835388/0#14 date=1227851718
    danll pay...
    dunno about that... Dan is an electrician by trade though Wiring diagrams and all the bits would do me

    Anyway, I look forward to hearing more on this... maybe someone could shoot Dean an email asking a few questions for me :....please :-*

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

      Originally posted by roknee link=1227835388/0#14 date=1227851718
      danll pay...

      Aaron youre the one with all the money sitting around cos youve taken forever to actually pick up a machine!! haha

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

        Think youd be a lot better off going with an "off the shelf" industrial controller Dan.... Would work out significantly cheaper I believe; especially as you can DIY everything that needs to be done 8-)

        Mal.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

          Yeah I think Im all talk and no action anyway.... I think I just like knowing my options..... its not like the current temp controller has been insufficient (to my palate) anyway.

          I just know what the original Giotto owners feel like - Very good machine, but theres an updated version - twice over(and then some). :

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

            Is this actually a PID? Gicars web page only lists one unit under temperature controllers and the info is pretty sparse; it just says that you can change the temperature using a trimmer. Can you actually program all of the various parameters, or can you only bump it up and down and program the offset?

            I guess that the difference between a PID and a temp controller might be rendered moot by the group head, anyway, but, still, it would be nice to know if the "PID" is actually a PID.

            Originally posted by YeeZa link=1227835388/0#10 date=1227849646
            no way!!! Thats the same PID as the ALEX DUETTOs!!! Hmmm, mind ticking over.....
            This should hardly be surprising. Gicar manufacture a number of parts that are used by many, many different manufacturers. Any bets, Vibiemme and Izzo only really thought of doing a dual boiler machine when Gicar released their new controller.

            Ill probably be posting on the retro fit if it is Wink... theres no way I can handle mine only being a fridge controller if theres a PID out there for my machine!!!
            Why not just retrofit an actual PID?

            Cheers,

            Luca

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

              Looks like its this one from their site :-/:

              PROPORTIONAL CONTROL

              GENERAL DESCRIPTION:
              Electronic device for the working temperature adjustment in small steam
              boilers or in coffee dispensing group.
              Adjustment is carried out according to signals coming from a NTC probe.
              MAIN TECHNICAL DATA:
              Rated voltage: 115 / 230 Vac - 50/60Hz
              Temperature range settable by trimmer: from 30 to 120°C
              Max. applicable power: 1200 Watt
              Output terminals: Faston and Connectors
              Operating temperature: up to 70°C
              Housing: UL94 V rated material
              Dimensions (mm): L100 / H25 / D60

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              • #22
                Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                Originally posted by luca link=1227835388/0#19 date=1228023222
                Why not just retrofit an actual PID?
                Yep, thats what I thought too Luca but I think Yeeza was just thinking out loud rather than committing to the idea.... :

                Mal.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                  Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1227835388/20#20 date=1228026988
                  Looks like its this one from their site  :-/:

                  PROPORTIONAL CONTROL

                  GENERAL DESCRIPTION:
                  Electronic device for the working temperature adjustment in small steam
                  boilers or in coffee dispensing group.
                  Adjustment is carried out according to signals coming from a NTC probe.
                  MAIN TECHNICAL DATA:
                  Rated voltage: 115 / 230 Vac - 50/60Hz
                  Temperature range settable by trimmer: from 30 to 120°C
                  Max. applicable power: 1200 Watt
                  Output terminals: Faston and Connectors
                  Operating temperature: up to 70°C
                  Housing: UL94 V rated material
                  Dimensions (mm): L100 / H25 / D60
                  Is a proportional control a PID? What about the integral and derivative aspects? Arent they necessary to minimise overshoot?

                  In reality, I cant imagine that many people would be able to pick the difference, but I am sick to death of the triumph of buzzwords over substance in coffee in general.

                  Cheers,

                  Luca

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                    Nope,

                    A Proportional controller is just that, a single dimension controller. No doubt the gain will be preset too and the only parameter open for adjustment will be the setpoint. This means that there will always be a small marginal error between the setpoint and the actual boiler temperature, regardless what the setpoint is adjusted to.

                    Will be interesting to see some charts of the controllers performance during an upset, when a shot is pulled or the group flushed, etc. I would imagine that the gain will be dampened somewhat to avoid setpoint over-shoot of any significant amount due to the thermal inertia of the heating element. From the description that Chris has provided from their website, it may also include some form of thyristor control of the output to the element. Such being the case, there may be a better level of control than implied by a simple Proportional controller which would normally provide a simple On/Off signal to a SSR, etc. In effect, this may be turn out to be quite a tight and reactive control system.

                    Cheers,
                    Mal.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                      Originally posted by Mal link=1227835388/20#23 date=1228039309
                      Nope,

                      A Proportional controller is just that, a single dimension controller. No doubt the gain will be preset too and the only parameter open for adjustment will be the setpoint. This means that there will always be a small marginal error between the setpoint and the actual boiler temperature, regardless what the setpoint is adjusted to.

                      Will be interesting to see some charts of the controllers performance during an upset, when a shot is pulled or the group flushed, etc. I would imagine that the gain will be dampened somewhat to avoid setpoint over-shoot of any significant amount due to the thermal inertia of the heating element. From the description that Chris has provided from their website, it may also include some form of thyristor control of the output to the element. Such being the case, there may be a better level of control than implied by a simple Proportional controller which would normally provide a simple On/Off signal to a SSR, etc. In effect, this may be turn out to be quite a tight and reactive control system.

                      Cheers,
                      Mal.
                      Thanks for clarifying that Mal,

                      Given that its not actually a PID, is it appropriate to rename the thread?

                      Chris

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                        I spose it depends on the claims being made by Expobar for the new Minore III. Do they actually claim it is a PID Controller Chris?

                        Mal.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                          Originally posted by Mal link=1227835388/20#25 date=1228039976
                          I spose it depends on the claims being made by Expobar for the new Minore III. Do they actually claim it is a PID Controller Chris?

                          Mal.
                          fraid I dont know Mal,

                          Its been very hard to get any information whatsoever other than the specifics of the cosmetic changes Mal.

                          Many people still think that the Minore II has a PID and the misinformation tends to propagate across the web pretty quickly..You need only Google Brewtus PID or Minore PID and theres a wealth of misinformation....

                          Chris

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                            No worries mate...

                            At the end of the day, its probably not that important anyway so long as the whole design does a good job and helps owners churn out consistently excellent coffee. Most people dont really know what a PID control system is anyway, much less understand how it achieves the desirable outcomes. Better for most people to think of it as a black-box control system; you dial in the temp you want, and after a little while, youve got it.

                            The intra-shot stability is mostly down to the mechanics of the machine anyway, with little or no dependence on the controller being used. Some machine designs such as the Dalle Corte that you were looking at Chris, probably integrate more closely with the controller than most but its the "whole" design thats important, not just the electronics... be they analogue or digital. I seem to remember you, Attilio and others returning to this very important point on the odd occasion

                            Cheers,
                            Mal.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                              Originally posted by Mal link=1227835388/20#25 date=1228039976
                              I spose it depends on the claims being made by Expobar for the new Minore III. Do they actually claim it is a PID Controller Chris?

                              Mal.
                              For that matter, what does Vibiemme say about their new machine?  What about Izzo?  Dont all of these machines now have the same Gicar controller inside them?

                              At the end of the day, its probably not that important anyway so long as the whole design does a good job and helps owners churn out consistently excellent coffee. Most people dont really know what a PID control system is anyway, much less understand how it achieves the desirable outcomes. Better for most people to think of it as a black-box control system; you dial in the temp you want, and after a little while, youve got it.  
                              Yep, agree 100%.  Its kind of surprising that the expobar dual boiler owners on this site have basically never posted on the subject of how to adjust brew temperature.  I wouldnt be surprised if most just left it at one temperature all of the time.  Learning to adjust brew temperature takes time and experimentation with lots of different coffees. I frequent this web page a fair bit and I cant remember any such experimentation being recorded. That said, I cant really remember any posts with people trying to relate dose to a specific coffee - posts on the subject seem to be working from the basis that there is one correct dose for a given machine, as opposed to a dose that brings out the best in a particular coffee ... in the same way as many discussions about brew temperature seem to work on the basis that there is one correct brew temperature for a machine, as opposed to one per coffee. So I kind of question how many dual boiler users actually benefit from shelling out the cash to get one as opposed to a HX.

                              Cheers,

                              Luca

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                                Originally posted by Mal link=1227835388/20#25 date=1228039976
                                I spose it depends on the claims being made by Expobar for the new Minore III. Do they actually claim it is a PID Controller Chris?

                                Mal.
                                Expobar Australia are seeking clarification. As soon as they know, Ill post the details.

                                It may be that this is the first place on the "coffee web" to make the distinction between a PID and a straight Proportional controller - at least I couldnt find any references.

                                Originally posted by Mal link=1227835388/20#27 date=1228041680
                                At the end of the day, its probably not that important anyway so long as the whole design does a good job and helps owners churn out consistently excellent coffee.
                                Absolutely. We shouldnt call something a PID when its not. But lets not lose sight of the fact that there is a much better controller on the Minore now (probably a Proportional controller but lets see ...), and with dual boilers, available at an attractive price point.

                                Whether or not there is Integral and Derivative elements in the feedback loop, and how much this actually affects the response of the system, and then how this affects the actual production of great shots - lets just say Im looking forward to the experiments and the discussions. Some Flukes and Scaces are going to get a workout I suspect

                                charlie

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