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Minore II with PID = Minore III

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  • #31
    Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

    so does this mean that when i told my wife, that spending whatever it was i spent to buy the minore I is justified as it meant i wouldnt need to buy a coffee machine ever again, i lied!! having the minore II was bad enough, but now with the III out.... what would i get for the old I now?????!!!?!?
    (maybe we can do a group conversion of old minores to the new non-pid pid?)


    and on the changing temp. thing... i do change the temp, each time i dial in a new coffee. i find the coffeehit daily blend needs it a bit higher (95), and a single origin i just got from BBB is in at 92....
    i taste the shots when i dial in a new coffee, and with my un-trained palette make adjustments...would be good to have another home barista course run to get these finer points sorted out.....

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    • #32
      Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

      Originally posted by krusty link=1227835388/20#30 date=1228111227
      and on the changing temp. thing... i do change the temp, each time i dial in a new coffee. i find the coffeehit daily blend needs it a bit higher (95), and a single origin i just got from BBB is in at 92....
      Yes, I used to fine tune the temp. setting on my previous PIDd domestic machine. I didnt really think all that much about it in all honesty, just "dialled it in" until the coffee tasted great. I guess I just thought others with similarly equipped machines were doing the same thing..... :-?

      Mal.

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      • #33
        Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

        Yeah on the temp thing there are some general things I do depending on the roast profile, blend or single origin, high acidity or not, etc, etc..... if anyone want to start another thread Ill give my 2c.

        I probably make half a dozen temp changes each week, depending on bean etc. More for mucking-arounds-sake and general mental notes.

        Im not planning on PIDing my Minore, just like to know whether what itd take for my machine to come up to scratch, more cos Im a curious cat.

        Pity its out there as a PID and not what it really is. Looking forward to more news on the updates.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

          Originally posted by YeeZa link=1227835388/20#32 date=1228127092
          Yeah on the temp .... if anyone wants to start another thread Ill give my 2c.
          hey dan

          DO THAT!

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

            I have to say I have a minore II and I  am constantly changing  brew temp, not just depending on the roast I am using, but how long I want to pour it, Generally I pour a  ristretto about  4c hotter than the same roast as a  full length  espresso.   The temp makes a huge difference  to the quality  of the shot

            If you fiddle with the  current BII controller you can see there is  a 6 degree overshoot  in the brew  boiler every element cycle. Most  of this  is absorbed  by the Grouphead  but it still  annoyes the $h!t out of  me as you cannot reliably count  on small temperature adjustments.  

            The fact  that the  new  controller will  actually show overshoot,  and  that it is  only 1 degreee  makes me  want it badly.   If you only have 1 degree swing  in  the  boiler there will be  next  to  nothing  at the head - meaning  you can have much more control over small adjustments.

            The other consideration about  retro fitting is  that there are no PIDs on  the  market that will fit in the BII without removing the tank, or letting it protrude -   If  the Gicar  controller fits in the spcae it might suit  BII owners  better than a PID.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

              Originally posted by Sink cut link=1227835388/20#34 date=1228215809
              If you fiddle with the  current BII controller you can see there is  a 6 degree overshoot  in the brew  boiler every element cycle. Most  of this  is absorbed  by the Grouphead  but it still  annoyes the $h!t out of  me as you cannot reliably count  on small temperature adjustments.  

              The fact  that the  new  controller will  actually show overshoot,  and  that it is  only 1 degreee  makes me  want it badly.   If you only have 1 degree swing  in  the  boiler there will be  next  to  nothing  at the head - meaning  you can have much more control over small adjustments.

              The other consideration about  retro fitting is  that there are no PIDs on  the  market that will fit in the BII without removing the tank, or letting it protrude -   If  the Gicar  controller fits in the spcae it might suit  BII owners  better than a PID.

              Sinkcut,
              What you say about the overshoot being absorbed by the grouphead is true.
              But interms of making temperature adjustment, the time it takes for "whatever" controller to reach and settle on its setpoint is mainly-moot.
              Because of the thermal mass of the group, any temp changes at the boiler will take at least 10- 20min "transfer" to the group and hence the cup.

              Where the behaviour of the controller really does count is how intrashot stability/recovery is affected.

              Re retrofitting a PID, you can always find a way, youre just dont want it enough yet!

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                Originally posted by Sink cut link=1227835388/20#34 date=1228215809
                The other consideration about  retro fitting is  that there are no PIDs on  the  market that will fit in the BII without removing the tank, or letting it protrude -   If  the Gicar  controller fits in the spcae it might suit  BII owners  better than a PID.
                I pulled the tank and pump out of my Minore II to stick them under the cabinets to keep things quiet. Makes refillling miles easier as well. Of course the real bonus was that there was plenty of room when I retrofitted a PID.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                  Originally posted by Mark link=1227835388/20#36 date=1228262803
                  Originally posted by Sink cut link=1227835388/20#34 date=1228215809
                  The other consideration about  retro fitting is  that there are no PIDs on  the  market that will fit in the BII without removing the tank, or letting it protrude -   If  the Gicar  controller fits in the spcae it might suit  BII owners  better than a PID.
                  I pulled the tank and pump out of my Minore II to stick them under the cabinets to keep things quiet. Makes refillling miles easier as well. Of course the real bonus was that there was plenty of room when I retrofitted a PID.
                  Feel free to post up ur PID, pics and stuff... Im quietly curious.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                    As an unexperienced user, not owning a E61 machine yet (because Im still undecided), I appreciated the updated design of the new minore much more than the change in temperature control.
                    From reading this and other forums, it seems to me as if theres not a huge difference in terms of results - that is coffee taste & quality. So probably this quote is not too far away from the truth:
                    Better for most people to think of it as a black-box control system; you dial in the temp you want, and after a little while, youve got it.  
                    Still - curious as I am: If someone ever does a comparison of real vs not-so-real PID, Id be interested to read about it.

                    Norman

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                      Originally posted by reubster link=1227835388/20#35 date=1228256479

                      Sinkcut,
                      What you say about the overshoot being absorbed by the grouphead is true.
                      But interms of making temperature adjustment, the time it takes for "whatever" controller to reach and settle on its setpoint is mainly-moot.
                      Because of the thermal mas of the group, any temp changes at the boiler will take at least 10- 20min "transfer" to the group and hence the cup.

                      Where the behaviour of the controller really does count is how intrashot stability/recovery is affected.

                      Re retrofitting a PID, you can always find a way, youre just dont want it enough yet!
                      My issue is not intrashot stability/recovery or how long  it takes for an adjustment to change actual shot temp. I think with a consistent flush  routien this is no issue  in a domestic environment.

                      My issue is that a  6 degree boiler swing translates to a 2 degree GH/Shot swing every element cycle. This means if you think you have made an adjustment of 1c you are kidding yourself. Yes, it should change your average shot temperatue by 1c but you really need a 3 degreee adjustment to gaurantee a  hotter or cooler shot.

                      The current  element cycle is VERY long,  it  will go on for one minute and then off for 5.  That fact in itself shows  that overshoot  is  occurring, even  if the display will not show it. The description of the new one  earlier in this  thread is that it "Pulses", that sounds much better.

                      I dont care if the new controller is PID or not, if it can reduce boiler swing to 1c  per  element cycle then it is 6 times better  than the current one  

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                        Originally posted by Sink cut link=1227835388/20#39 date=1228295175
                        I dont care if the new controller is PID or not, if it can reduce boiler swing to 1c per element cycle then it is 6 times better than the current one
                        Got it in one "Sc"..... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

                        Mal.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                          Originally posted by Mal link=1227835388/40#40 date=1228307248
                          Originally posted by Sink cut link=1227835388/20#39 date=1228295175
                          I dont care if the new controller is PID or not, if it can reduce boiler swing to 1c  per  element cycle then it is 6 times better  than the current one  
                          Got it in one "Sc"..... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

                          Mal.
                          Ours arrive today.

                          Ill hit it with the Scace and datalogging software and report back.... ;-)

                          Chris

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                            Cool, Ill be keen to see some nerdy graphs.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                              Me too!
                              Especially to how reliable the adjustment is form degree to the next -i.e Does it really adjust actual brew temp by 1 degree?
                              also how it compares with the BII in this department.....

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III

                                Originally posted by Sink cut link=1227835388/40#43 date=1228379039
                                Me too!
                                Especially to how reliable the adjustment is form degree to the next -i.e Does it really adjust actual brew temp by 1 degree?
                                also how it compares with the BII in  this department.....
                                I pulled a few quick shots today. Without putting a scace over it, I reckon it reacts much more quickly. The appearance of the machine is dramatically better.

                                Much nicer machine IMHO...

                                Chris

                                Comment

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