Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
A bit off topic but, the other advantage of doing this mod is that it left me with the old controller, sensor and trnasformer spare. I put the unused transformer and controller into a jiffy box with a 240v extension cord in and out.
This makes a thermostat switch which will work with any 240v appliance for heating or cooling. This is now one of the most handy pieces of equipment I have. It can control a frige, freezer (in cooling mode) or heating device in heating mode. Any home brewers, yogurt makers or cheese makers will appreciate this. The contoller has many features which make it great for these things , offset ,deadband, compressor protection etc.. Its just no good in an espresso machine
here it is controlling a proof box light bulb for sourdough:
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
Originally posted by 41585F595E532A0 link=1227835388/76#76 date=1235439429any noticable difference in the cup?
The noticable difference is consistency from cup to cup which allows me to more effectivley dial in the best temp for that particular bean/batch.
Two weeks before doing this mod I learnt to "Surf" the stock setup. I would wait for the brew element to come on and then switch the machine off 4 seconds later . After 30 sec I would turn the machine back on and it would be up to temp. With this method the brew element cycle came down to about 1.5mins and I instantly noticed the differnce in shot consistency. Surfing the machine like this is an absolute pain in the A$$ but the difference was so obvious to me that I kept doing it. With a PID this is no longer necessary
With my PID set up you still need to give the machine 5 minutes to adjust to changes in the set point as it takes a while for it to work out how to hold the new target. Having 0.1 degree resolution is probably too much information but it gives good insight to what is going on.
Also, PID or not, I think flushing routiene is extremely important for consistency from shot to shot. I have been taking lots of readings at the PF with my home made pressurised baskent thermocouple and I have found the best method is to:
-run pump for 4 seconds
-measure and grind beans (takes me 25 secods)
-rinse the basket with aother 4 second flush
-dose and tamp (takes me about 50 sec)
-and then another 4 second flush immediatly before locking PF and pulling shot.
If you dont flush enough your shot will be too cool. If you flush too much you start effecting the boiler temp and the results become inconsistent (hotter or colder). The three short flushes with a break in between them means the boiler temp will not drop but your group head will still warm up nicely.
I am not sure if Minore 1 had the same amount of overshoot as I was experiencing with the minore 2 ao I dont know if the mod is worth doing or not. I would suggest trying the "surfing" method I mentioned above. If it makes an obvious difference for you then I reckon a PID Mod is the way to go.
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
So, what is the possiblility of do this mod to a minore I???
i think i would like more control, but my ability to do this would be close to zero!
any noticable difference in the cup?
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
Enough of my whinging.
A week ago I put a PID on my B2! I got around the length problem by making a 15mm spacer which makes the controller sit out a little bit . It all fits in the box, no body changes and I still have my water tank.
My machine now idles within 0.1c of the setpoint. My 9 minute brew boiler cycle is now 2 seconds! I used the same components as CSer Mark, PID,SSR and RTD temp sensor, all up about $75US.
Here are some BAD photos. Looks much better in real life but you get the idea:
(dont look renzo : ) )
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
Well to be honest the BIII could do the same thing. I havent done the setpoint jig trick to see what it actually is, but looking at the heating element on / off times I wouldnt expect it to drastically overshoot - apart from the fact a PID should prevent that anyway. Take comfort in the fact that those who have fitted PIDs to their BIIs havent noticed any in the cup difference.
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
The steam boiler has a 2 minute cycle. on for 5 seconds and then off for about 1:50. In this case the pressure stat seems a lot more accurate than the stock B2 brew control.
You can still see the actual boiler temp by raising the set point over the overshoot amount just at the right time.
eg. idleing with the set point on 90c wait untill 10 seconds after the element turns off. Raise the setpoint to 99. THe temp will start climbing from 97... thats 7 degree overshoot.
I should really stop whinging. this thread is about the B3. I just want a Gicar controller and dont know where to get one.
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
Originally posted by 1923242115293F3E4A0 link=1227835388/71#71 date=1233054658The9 minute cycle tells the story
Mmmmm.... that certainly isnt real flash
Time for a temp probe on the actual boiler to see what it is doing methinks....
Even my 17L boiler with 4KW of heating is on for about 20 seconds and off for only 1 minute 30 seconds...... and that includes a heap of brass in the groups as well...... (equates to a 3 deg C variation at the boiler)
9 minutes would indicate a huge overshoot I would think.
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
Yep, every element cycle, even when on for hours. The element goes on for 30 seconds and then takes 9 minutes to cool back down before comming back on again. The display in the B2 just shows the setpoint if the actual temp is >= to the setpoint... i.e it hides overshoot. You have to trick the controller to see it.
The 9 minute cycle tells the story.
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
Ah, that JUST MIGHT account for something! ;D In fact youre cooking a bit quicker than me, as you say probably related to local power supply fluctuations as with the HT.
So are you saying you get 6-8 degree overshoot EVERY heating cycle? My surfing suggestion was just for shot recovery / initial warm-up, but of course totally impractical for every heating cycle! A properly tuned PID would definitely help that.
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
JuSilly me. I assumed my elements were 1200w as thats what the sheet of paper that came with the machine said. I just checked the sticker behind the drip tray and it says 2x2000wOriginally posted by 774D4A4F7B475150240 link=1227835388/68#68 date=1233045135Just for comparison I timed my warm up from cold (28c on display). After 7:10 both steam and brew boiler to reached target temp. From memory my hottop is faster than yours too, maybe its a local power thing.
. Thats why the warmup compares to yours, and probably explains the greater temp swings than the US ones.
David
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
Surfing would be too much of a pain for me with the B2. You would have to have the set temp so low that the GH would need a huge flush to warm it up... and the build up of heat inertia, therfore overshoot , may be variable depending on the stage in the cycle you bumped it up.
You are correct about the lumps and bumps being smoothed out. I have done a lot of shot temp testing lateley and my 6-8 degree boiler swing translates to a maximum of 3.5 degrees change in shot temp.(each shot tested after a 60ml flush at different times in the element cycle). Interestingly my boiler swing and shot temp swing is 3 degrees and 1.5 degrees greater than the documented U.S cases - I think this may be related to element power (US 900, mine 1200).
Just for comparison I timed my warm up from cold (28c on display). After 7:10 both steam and brew boiler to reached target temp. From memory my hottop is faster than yours too, maybe its a local power thing.
If I cant get hold of a GICAR controller I will just use the auber (like Cser "Mark"). Because I am leaving my tank where it is the auber PID may just sit out 15mm forward of the face plate.
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
My experience, brief as it has thus far been, mirrors what Charlie observed. On warmup from cold with a setpoint of 93, the heater stays on until 91 and then pulses a few times before it overshoots to 94 and then stabilises. However were within the 10 minute from turn-on mark at that point and I wouldnt be using it that soon anyway. One must remember this is the predicted brew temperature, not the boiler temperature, so Im sure there may be a bit more overshoot actually happening than the controller is indicating.
However the Minores design is pretty forgiving anyway; the E61 group would go a long way to stabilising any lumps and bumps in temperature, and the water pre-heater and big boiler (with suitable damping in the PID algorithm) mean the overall boiler temperature isnt going to waver anywhere near as much as the Silvia did - 300ml with no pre-heater.
I am quite impressed with warm-up time; I was expecting it to take 20-30 minutes to get to temperature but its about 4:10 for each boiler - so under 8:30 and both boilers are at temperature, with the group already getting quite warm. I guess 2kW does that!
If youre having overshoot problems you could always surf the controller a bit (much like you can with the Hottop P) - make the setpoint 6-8 degrees below where you want it to be and bump it up to the right setting during overshoot. Or put up with it. Or just upgrade to a MIII!
Would certainly be less messing around.
Greg
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
Thanks Greg, I thought as much.
Does anyone know where you can buy GICAR controllers from in Oz? I cannot even find a Gicar website.
My B2 has 2X1200w elements so tuning the PID will be different to the B3, and different to the YAnkee B2s as they have 900w. I am sure its not rocket science though, I am currently living with 6-8 degree boiler swing, If I can get that to 1c I will be stoked.
Greg, Does your new machine show overshoot?
how often does the brew element come on?
Thanks
David
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Re: Minore II with PID = Minore III
The Expobars kit appears to be 240V only. Both the brainbox and the PID unit itself are marked as being for 230v / 240v operation only. So youd probably have to source on locally if you were going to retrofit David.Originally posted by 55787C707D110 link=1227835388/61#61 date=1232877027You could pretty well guarantee that this will be the case for some components but might be worth checking out just the same. Most PID units have a universal power supply and can accept an incoming voltage from roughly 90V AC to as high as 275V AC and a frequency range of between 45-65Hz. SSRs are specifically chosen to suit local conditions though so this would be better sourced from Oz....Originally posted by 1E242326122E38394D0 link=1227835388/60#60 date=1232829270Problem for me is the actual parts in this yankee kit may not support 240v.
Anyway, whichever way you tackle it, you should be able to realise the outcome you seek
..... All the best David,
Mal.

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