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Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

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  • Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

    In Canada.

    Expobar 2 will run me about $1600.00 special CDN.

    Rocket is running me $1896.00 CDN

    Im leaning to the Giotto due to rave reviews about build quality, ease of use, longevity & support.

    Is it really worth an extra $300.00? over the Brewtus 2?

    Any ideas?


  • #2
    Re: Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

    Pravspresso;

    That are very good prices any of both machines. Both are quite good, in regards internals both uses similar parts ulka pump, same fill solonoid, same lever mechanism.

    Really depents on you, if you are roasting your own beans probably the Brutus II will be a better machine, because you can change the brewing tempature to suit that bean. However with the new improbements on the Giotto this machine is preforming well with any bean.

    For me will be more important that the reseller has a very well structure business and could help you if anything goes wrong with any of those machines or other.

    Anyway, the best way is that you go and play with this machines.


    regards


    Renzo

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

      I would go for the brewtus over the giotto even if both were the same price. However, note that there is a brewtus III around ...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

        really?....is that because of the temperature consistency in the Brewtus 2?

        We dont have access to the Brewtus 3 in Canada yet.

        I didnt see much done in terms of changes on other descriptions...?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

          Temperature consistency is grossly overrated and poorly understood. As far as I can tell, with any e61 machine, your shots will increase in temperature over the first few in a series, so, to some extent, sitting there and trying to dial in a blend could be an exercise in frustration if that level of tolerance is meaningful. What you can do on the brewtus, though, is to adjust the temperature much more easily than you can on the giotto.

          I think that the main change in the brewtus III is to substitute the refrigerator controller that expobar pioneered for the stock PID that gicar is now offering. Whether or not this really makes much of a difference is anyones guess; I presume that it wouldnt, really.

          The giotto features an infuriatingly small drip tray topped with an infuriating metal plate that accumulates mess like you wouldnt believe. The extra money that you pay over a brewtus also results in the brew pressure gauge being removed, so you are at the mercy of your vendor to set it up and, from memory, a lower shower screen/filter basket combo that holds less coffee. So, all up, the brewtus seems to me to be a more user-friendly machine that gives you more flexibility if you want it and doesnt penalise you if you dont ... and all for less money. I dont put much credence into the reports of the giottos supposed superior build quality. For one thing, most of the standard parts in espresso machines are interchangeable. For another, I think that the giotto is still built on a powder-coated steel frame. Should the powdercoat chip, the frame can rust. If you buy any prosumer espresso machine, you should count on having to replace components like the pressurestat and gaskets every now and then. The electronic temperature control might fail every now and then, but so do pressurestats. I think that the giotto advertises that it has a bigger commercial pressurestat now ... usually, this means that the pressurestat has a larger deadband and makes a louder clicking noise, though I suppose that it might have a longer lifespan. I should also add that the half dozen times that I have used a giotto, it has run too hot, too cold and/or the pour has taken too long to start and sped up too quickly, whereas the few times that I have used a brewtus I have not had those issues. So, as you can see, I think that the giotto is a very difficult proposition to justify over the brewtus.

          Cheers,

          Luca

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

            Originally posted by luca link=1231296465/0#4 date=1231393027
            Temperature consistency is grossly overrated and poorly understood.  As far as I can tell, with any e61 machine, your shots will increase in temperature over the first few in a series, so, to some extent, sitting there and trying to dial in a blend could be an exercise in frustration if that level of tolerance is meaningful.  What you can do on the brewtus, though, is to adjust the temperature much more easily than you can on the giotto.
            Agreed Luca.

            I think though for the vast majority of users that inconsistency in dose and therefore outcome will have a much larger influence. We all keep forgetting about the nut on the group handle.

            Originally posted by luca link=1231296465/0#4 date=1231393027
            I think that the main change in the brewtus III is to substitute the refrigerator controller that expobar pioneered for the stock PID that gicar is now offering.  Whether or not this really makes much of a difference is anyones guess; I presume that it wouldnt, really.
            Im still unsure as to whether the Gicar controller is a PID or simply a proportional controller (as per their website). Agreed that it probably makes no difference. There are also the revised power switch and short lges as well. If I was buying a Minore/Brewtus II, Id be looking for a big discount on the superseeded model.

            Originally posted by luca link=1231296465/0#4 date=1231393027
            The giotto features an infuriatingly small drip tray topped with an infuriating metal plate that accumulates mess like you wouldnt believe.  The extra money that you pay over a brewtus also results in the brew pressure gauge being removed, so you are at the mercy of your vendor to set it up and, from memory, a lower shower screen/filter basket combo that holds less coffee.  So, all up, the brewtus seems to me to be a more user-friendly machine that gives you more flexibility if you want it and doesnt penalise you if you dont ... and all for less money.  I dont put much credence into the reports of the giottos supposed superior build quality.  For one thing, most of the standard parts in espresso machines are interchangeable.  For another, I think that the giotto is still built on a powder-coated steel frame.  Should the powdercoat chip, the frame can rust.  If you buy any prosumer espresso machine, you should count on having to replace components like the pressurestat and gaskets every now and then.  The electronic temperature control might fail every now and then, but so do pressurestats.  I think that the giotto advertises that it has a bigger commercial pressurestat now ... usually, this means that the pressurestat has a larger deadband and makes a louder clicking noise, though I suppose that it might have a longer lifespan.  I should also add that the half dozen times that I have used a giotto, it has run too hot, too cold and/or the pour has taken too long to start and sped up too quickly, whereas the few times that I have used a brewtus I have not had those issues.  So, as you can see, I think that the giotto is a very difficult proposition to justify over the brewtus.

            Cheers,

            Luca
            On these comments, I have a few comments to add:

            There is significant difference in the old Giotto v the new GPP and the Scace device proves it.

            At the recent CS day at Dennis shed, one thing we did was to try the GPP out on the Scace with 10 back to back shots allowing the group handle to cool to 60 deg C as it would during a load and 10 random walk up shots over the next 15 min or so. What we saw was a rock solid trace.

            As for build quality, perhaps it might be more appropriate to refer to finish. Both machines are very well built but there is no contest when it comes to finish. Youd easily pick the superior finish of the Giotto by braille. The Minore III is a more complex machine and as a result, I think its prudent to factor in a higher cost of ownership as cmponents fail and require replacement. There is also less free space in the Minore- so some services take more time.

            I agree that the drip tray and cover of the Giotto are very much form over function. I prefer the tank configuration of the Giotto (and also the Domus Galatea) as the most user friendly that there is. The absence of a system pressure gauge is not a deal breaker for me though as I am yet to need to make an opv adjustment on a GPP. EVERY one ships at 9.0 bar therefor making a system pressure gauge pretty much redundant. A whole heap of other manufacturers should take note- especially those who hide and then locktite theirs at 12 bar :. We are yet to see the perfect machine....

            The GPP is shipping with a Sirai pressurestat and the Rotary pump plumb-in version- with a pump pressure gauge is on the way.

            The Giotto is a terrific machine and sells in huge numbers in Australia for very good reason. Its fantastic in almost every aspect of operation and construction and its incredibly reliable. They also very rarely are sold 2nd hand...Must be something in that...

            The Minore is also a great machine, Spanish made, and in Australia it has a RRP a mere $195 less.

            FWIW, perhaps its time you had a play with the new Giotto Luca  :-?. You have an open invite to the shed.

            Chris

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

              First of all, Chris, you gotta let me in or your secret for quoting people by name easily!

              Im still unsure as to whether the Gicar controller is a PID or simply a proportional controller (as per their website). Agreed that it probably makes no difference. There are also the revised power switch and short lges as well. If I was buying a Minore/Brewtus II, Id be looking for a big discount on the superseeded model.
              Good point; I forgot about that.  Regardless of whether it is a PID or not, I dont think that it would result in a significant improvement that many would pick out.  Abe Carmeli replaced his brewtus temp controller and pstat with two PIDs and commented something to the effect that he didnt feel the difference was huge.

              There is significant difference in the old Giotto v the new GPP and the Scace device proves it.  
              FWIW, perhaps its time you had a play with the new Giotto Luca  :-?. You have an open invite to the shed.
              I have used it twice.  The last time, Nim and Syd both mentioned that they thought it ran cold without any prompting from me.  Those machines were not from you, though, so perhaps yours perform better if they come stock with your thermosyphon tweak.  Regardless, Ive definitely got coming down to the shed on my agenda!

              The Minore III is a more complex machine and as a result, I think its prudent to factor in a higher cost of ownership as cmponents fail and require replacement. There is also less free space in the Minore- so some services take more time.
              This gets repeated time and time again and I have to confess that I dont understand it.  OK, so it has an electronic temperature controller.  Beyond that, its not immediately obvious to me how the components of the giotto are superior.  In any case, many of the nuts who hack their machines to take PIDs instead of pstats justify it by saying that they expect a longer lifetime from the PID than the pstat.  Also, if the giotto does have components that are in some way superior, they are likely to be more expensive.  So when you add that all up and then take into account that the giotto is more expensive to start off with, I dont see that its a foregone conclusion that the giotto will be cheaper in the long run.

              The GPP is shipping with a Sirai pressurestat and the Rotary pump plumb-in version- with a pump pressure gauge is on the way.
              I dont like the sirai stat.  It is big, loud and has a big deadband.  La Marzocco and other manufacturers use the much-maligned but quieter domestic pressurestats with smaller deadbands.

              For whatever relevance it is, the expobar is already available with rotary pump and pressure gauge ;P

              The Giotto is a terrific machine and sells in huge numbers in Australia for very good reason. Its fantastic in almost every aspect of operation and construction and its incredibly reliable.
              The cynic in me says that the giotto sells in huge numbers in Australia for the very good reasons that it has the longest and most high profile market history, it is well promoted and supported and it is, at least to me, the most beautiful and distinctive machine on the Australian market.  The first to market advantage is particularly important in the context of online forums, which become an echo chamber of happy owners. None of which means that it is necessarily a good value machine or good performer - indeed, the various plays that I have had with the various giottos over the years would certainly put me off buying it.  That said, I am very curious to have a go at your hot-rodded giottos!

              Cheers,

              Luca

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Expobar Brewtus 2 or Rckt.Giotto Prem.Plus

                This gets repeated time and time again and I have to confess that I dont understand it.  OK, so it has an electronic temperature controller.  Beyond that, its not immediately obvious to me how the components of the giotto are superior.  
                Hi Luca- I think you misinterpreted my statement. The GPP is by nature a much simpler machine as theres a whole heap less to jam into the case. I often use the analogy of 60s holden v current honda.  

                .....None of which means that it is necessarily a good value machine or good performer - indeed, the various plays that I have had with the various giottos over the years would certainly put me off buying it.  That said, I am very curious to have a go at your hot-rodded giottos!
                Sooory....but I have to disagree. The Giotto is of similar price to other Italian made machines and of similar or better specs than many. It performs very well. We are not modifying current build Giottos as they are excellent straight out of the box. We merely bench test them to ensure that they are operating as they should. Both the Giotto and the Minore III are excellent machines- which is why we range them.

                Chris

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