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  • Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Hi. This may have been covered elsewhere, but Ive struggled to find specific answers.
    I purchased a second hand Giotto Premium around a month ago and decided to get a bottomless portafilter at the same time. Coming from my old Gaggia there was quite a learning curve but eventually I was pulling reasonable tasting shots with the standard handle. Now to the bottomless... Whilst I have improved from the initial disastrous pulls, Im still nowhere near a good one.
    Im using a Cunil tranquilo grinder and Reg Barber Tamper. The filter basket is 21g. At the moment Ive had best luck with the following:

    Grind into dosing spoon then transfer to filter basket until heaped, tap lightly on the bench then add more grinds (Earlier pulls seemed much worse without tapping to settle grinds as I think it was underdosed).

    As there seems to be a lot of static and clumping from the cunil I have then been "stirring" the grinds with a paper clip before leveling. I level with the straight back edge of a knife and then tamp. I just tamp once and finish with a twist (no knocking after light tamp then heavy tamp or anything else), then I blow off the loose grinds around the edges.

    The resulting pull at best starts reasonbly evenly (more from outside), to then form a peak from near to the middle, but there are still spots around the basket indicating chaneling (?) and resulting in smaller spirals or drips near the outside of the basket which dont join the middle (and cause mess). The edges of the puck are usually "pitted" slightly, but otherwise firm (as long as I have overdosed as above), and not showing anything alse to speak of.

    Ive been practising for some time (a lot of wasted coffee with the 21g basket), and have come to a plateau of results, so to speak. Im a reletive newbie, so maybe Im doing something obviously wrong. I cant work out what I need to do to improve further though. Please help!

  • #2
    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    My only advice here is patience. I went through a similar learning curve on my previous machine and turned to the naked. Then it reached the stage where I didnt seem to be progressing.

    Theres an on-line resource here that might help but the clincher for me was
    - ensuring that the basket was properly dosed (i was under-dosing)
    - ensuring there are no gaps around the edges (especially where the handle meets the filter holder)
    - and the tamp was level.
    I have a Pullman which makes that a bit easier for a level tamp but if you have a ridged basket, that will give a pretty good indication of a level tamp.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

      Hi Ben,

      I have 2 of the same grinders (regular & decaf) and while I consider them to be ugly , slow & noisey, the grind quality is pretty good...... But on both of mine I grind into plastic containers that are sized  so that you can totally invert them into the group handle....... Once in the group handle upside down .... I tap group handle  on the counter and rotate my plastic containers right and left.
      Using a Espro tamper , I light tamp ....tap .... and  heavy tamp til I get the click from Espro...

      Thats me for dosing..... though I dont have a naked group handle to play with....

      My plastic containers are sauce bottles from the $2 shop, chopped down, providing a snug fit in the group handle.

      Good luck

      ***** looks like some big brother editing going on here .... every time I write P....F... the word group handle appears ..... you mods are playing with my mind

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

        Originally posted by 30372C2B30373C580 link=1256859191/2#2 date=1256888453
        ***** looks like some big brother editing going on here .... every time I write  P....F... the word group handle appears ..... you mods are playing with my mind  
        Thats Andy having a little fun.... Trying to steer people away from the Americanised so-called porta_filter and encourage us to use the more correct term of Group Handle. Seems fair enough to me I must admit....

        Mal.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

          Thanks for the help. I should have known thered be no easy way foward...

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

            Originally posted by 54797D717C100 link=1256859191/3#3 date=1256922387
            Originally posted by 30372C2B30373C580 link=1256859191/2#2 date=1256888453
            ***** looks like some big brother editing going on here .... every time I write  P....F... the word group handle appears ..... you mods are playing with my mind  
            Thats Andy having a little fun.... Trying to steer people away from the Americanised so-called Portafilter and encourage us to use the more correct term of Group Handle. Seems fair enough to me I must admit....

            Mal.
            ha ha he did it to you to mal ;D

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

              Yeah, he did..... ;D

              Mal.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

                Originally posted by 6E64716666697D7B080 link=1256859191/1#1 date=1256861872
                - ensuring that the basket was properly dosed (i was under-dosing)
                - ensuring there are no gaps around the edges (especially where the handle meets the filter holder)
                - and the tamp was level.
                I have a Pullman which makes that a bit easier for a level tamp but if you have a ridged basket, that will give a pretty good indication of a level tamp.
                Personally, I find under-dosing is often a great way to correct channelling on machines I havent tried before. The Reg Barber might actually be my choice over the Pullman (nothing against greg, I like the feeling but my wife doesnt like the colours ), and the levelling rings are a useful training tool, but you shouldnt need them. A level tamp and correct edge distribution will probably do more. have you tried pressing around the top with the pad of one of your fingers to find out where weak spots are?

                Remember that youre trying to go for an even extraction rather than a perfectly flat, pre-tamped surface. On a HX E61 machine, shots which are updosed are likely to start extracting on the outside first. You could look at a set of Scottie Callaghans dosing tools from Di Bartoli (or any other sponsor that sells them), and use a #4 in the home set to excavate the middle and improve distribution. I suggest trying to give up on the WDT and Im wondering if youre not fracturing the top of the puck when you give it a twist to polish.

                Which city/area are you in? If its Sydney, Im happy to meet up and pull shots with you.

                cheers,

                John.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

                  Originally posted by 6944404C412D0 link=1256859191/3#3 date=1256922387
                  Originally posted by 30372C2B30373C580 link=1256859191/2#2 date=1256888453
                  ***** looks like some big brother editing going on here .... every time I write  P....F... the word group handle appears ..... you mods are playing with my mind  
                  Thats Andy having a little fun.... Trying to steer people away from the Americanised so-called porta_filter and encourage us to use the more correct term of Group Handle. Seems fair enough to me I must admit....

                  Mal.
                  My understand is that p*rtafilt*r is the group handle, basket and spouts assembly rather than just the group handle. It annoys me that the anti-swear filters arent set on here to do much other than mess with peoples heads, but as its andys forum he can do what he likes ;D

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

                    I thought the word came from Italian and that "porta" means carry or hold and in this case "filter" is the basket.

                    I think its a given that the spouts are included.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

                      In Italian "porta" means door or gate. This makes the "portafilter" noun one of those mixed language specimens like "Supermercato."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

                        Porta means door in Greek too but the root word "port" means to carry.

                        French porter, to carry, from Old French, from Latin portre;

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

                          Originally posted by 4865646F75687578010 link=1256859191/7#7 date=1257085844

                          The Reg Barber might actually be my choice over the Pullman.....
                          Ive had my Reg for about 10 years now and its as good now as the day it arrived. At that time I had to order it direct from Reg Barber in Canada and have it shipped to me. There were no local agents in the country (that I could find anyway).

                          I remember being very worried about whether it would be worth spending quite that much on a bit of wood and metal. Needless to say my wife didnt know how much it cost (and still doesnt shhhh :P) because the justification process even for me was tough. I love her dearly, but there was no way shed get it

                          Unfortunately, since moving to a Giotto, Ive found that Reg is just a little too loose in the basket for me to be comfortable. So Im currently awaiting delivery of my new customised Pullman Barista  (stealth black with some nifty laser etching) and fitted Synesso baskets. And no, my wife doesnt know how much this one is costing either.... its better for everyone concerned if it stays that way ;D

                          Hey, its only money......  :

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

                            Originally posted by 0F332E353F3E293C343F5B0 link=1256859191/11#11 date=1257118678
                            Porta means door in Greek too but the root word "port" means to carry.

                            French porter, to carry, from Old French, from Latin portre;
                            Ahah! Somewhere in the dim recesses of my brain I was aware of the Latin yet didnt make the immediate connection. Thank you! CoffeeSnobs and culture seem to go hand in hand!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

                              Coffee Horse- thanks fo the offer, its much appreciated. Unfortunatly Im in Hobart though. Sorry, Im not sure exactly what you mean by "WDT" (some part of my process, no doubt)? Ill try the other tips anyway.

                              On the reg Barber- I also notice that there is a reasonable gap around the circumference, particularly with the straight (non-tapered) sides of the 21g basket- do you think this is enough to cause an issue? Also on that note, I seem to have more consistent results using the giotto double basket in the bottomless handle- something to do with the shape, perhaps?

                              Cheers

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