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Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

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  • #16
    Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

    Originally posted by 0E170103620 link=1257849256/14#14 date=1258029973
    I think that replacing it with a better one or a PID wouldnt necessarily be a bad thing.
    Waste of a good PID Controller in my opinion where HX machines are concerned; based purely on my professional opinion and experience gained over the past four decades working in a wide range of process control applications..... :

    Originally posted by 647D6B69080 link=1257849256/14#14 date=1258029973
    Has anyone tried having their pstat switch via a SSR?
    Why Luca?

    Mal.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

      Re Giotto drainage why not investigate fitting the drainage system of the Giotto Pro.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

        Originally posted by 312E243528262A2235470 link=1257849256/16#16 date=1258055568
        Re Giotto drainage why not investigate fitting the drainage system of the Giotto Pro.
        Possible- but in a Giotto, the drip tray and chassis would need to be cut. The Premium Plus and Giotto Pro have a different chassis to the Giotto Premium.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

          Originally posted by 436E6A666B070 link=1257849256/15#15 date=1258034357
          Originally posted by 647D6B69080 link=1257849256/14#14 date=1258029973
          Has anyone tried having their pstat switch via a SSR?
          Why Luca?

          Mal.
          I have seen this on a few commercial machines and I am told that this increases the longevity of the pressurestat. Not being electrically minded, I wouldnt know. Its kind of funny to look inside a LM FB80 and see a tiny little CEME pressurestat switching the steam boiler.

          Cheers,
          Luca

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

            From Paul Pratts LM site
            pressurestats
            relays

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

              Originally posted by 4D544240210 link=1257849256/14#14 date=1258029973
              One that I have always wanted to try, but havent gotten around to, is removing the gicleur in the group, or replacing it with a much larger diameter one.  

              Has anyone tried having their pstat switch via a SSR?

              Unrestricting the group by removing or drilling the group jet (gicleur) to a larger diameter results in slightly (depends on how much you drill out) cooler brewing water by allowing a quicker / greater flow of water to pass through the heat exchanger and into the group. The quicker flow, means it picks up less heat on the way through the hx.

              Machines are set up by their manufacturers with regard to many factors within their overall design, and drilling the group jet is only one part of the equation as Mal has pointed out somewhere above in one of his posts. If you drill out the jet, you may well end up chasing your tail around other parts of the machine trying to modify something else in order to "counter" the result of drilling the jet out....

              What is an SSR please. If it is some kind of relay, some of the better manufacturers have already been doing that. Some in fact have already gone past that and onto electronic relays that do the same job but dont have any working parts in them.

              These manufacturer supplied innovations (part of a good manufacturers R & D) do extend the working life of mini pressurestats so no reason why they wouldnt do the same for a regular sized pressurestat.

              That said, a sirai will last a good year in large cafe use so it could be said that to switch through some kind of relay is not necessarily  required when there are other things to service or replace annually (or even twice annually depending on the situation) the sirai being just one of them.

              Just returning for a moment to comment that a machine is a "total"  design,  someone above mentioned heat wrapping the boiler. I wouldnt do this unless prepared to spend considerable time and effort trying to cool the machine back down to an acceptable level afterwards.  Different machines will respond in different ways.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                Originally posted by 10313A3D271E19540 link=1257849256/20#20 date=1258267357
                What is an SSR please
                Solid State Relay.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                  Fantastic, thank you. Its elementary really!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                    Originally posted by 6A736567060 link=1257849256/18#18 date=1258254539
                    I have seen this on a few commercial machines and I am told that this increases the longevity of the pressurestat.  Not being electrically minded, I wouldnt know.  Its kind of funny to look inside a LM FB80 and see a tiny little CEME pressurestat switching the steam boiler.  

                    Cheers,
                    Luca
                    LOL....

                    I can imagine mate ;D

                    Yep, thats a good reason to fit one. Easy to do as a retro-fit too if you know someone with the requisite quals and license.... 8-)

                    Mal.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                      Originally posted by 1D3C37302A1314590 link=1257849256/20#20 date=1258267357
                      Just returning for a moment to comment that a machine is a "total"  design,  someone above mentioned heat wrapping the boiler. I wouldnt do this unless prepared to spend considerable time and effort trying to cool the machine back down to an acceptable level afterwards.  Different machines will respond in different ways.
                      I appreciate what youre saying Denis but so long as the Boiler only is insulated, there will be no temperature increase of the Thermosyphon Flow as the Boiler Water Temp will not be altered, just become a lot more stable. For someone who relies on the Cup Warming Tray to keep their cups warm though, its not to be recommended....

                      Mal.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                        Hi Greg-

                        I recently puchased a Rocket Cellini Premium Plus, and am kicking myself for not purchasing the plumbed in version. I didnt realize how much I would use this machine, nor did I understand the whole flushing concept before purchasing.

                        Would you mind sharing the details of how you plumbed yours in?

                        Thanks!

                        Steve

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                          I flush mine into a cup to help warm it, would only be 60 or so mls anyway.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                            HI Everyone,

                            Cheers for your comments.... a few points from my experiences.

                            PID - What it does well:
                            the PID is perfect for maintaining the machine on for longer durations. Less fluctuation, less energy and better water stability. The water temp remains constant once the machine has been on for a long time, ie. over 30min as there is little heat loss to the head/base/frame/etc hence the PID and steam pressure works well.
                            1) Hence, I use the PID for keeping the machine warm;
                            2) as a thermometer to the water temp, as you know the pressure does not translate to a temp well so you need a constant to work out your water temp out of the head. So now I can control my tank temp and hence brew head temp.

                            PID - What it doesnt do well:
                            On a cold or warm machine water temp =/= pressure, so steaming with a PID is no good. ie in the mornings when the machine is barely at temp and I need a coffee - I use the pstat it reacts better to steam pressure & gives a round about water temp.
                            Once the machine is a stable temp over 30min then it acts very similar to the PID anyway and there is little benefit to a PID.

                            Summary (for those who dont want to read the garble):
                            Is a PID worth it? No its not worth it.
                            Why do it? it will improve your coffee & consistency for au$60 & a few hrs effort.

                            The drip tray mods:
                            I have rounded the corners and adjusted the rubbers inside and I can actually fit the tray without scratching the base. Can you fit waste - yes BUT a) you will need to cut the frame/base b) there is little room between the base and tray - so the hole will need to be large to fit the catcher + piping.

                            Plumbing in:
                            This is tricky if you want a perfect frame mount finish.
                            Easy if you want to lead the pipe inside through the pre-made hole in the base. This is easy and they come with fitting instructions.

                            I purchased a plumb-in kit + installed a brass fitting and drilled into the base. The kit allows you to tap a John Guest fitting 1/4" press-in tube to the back of the pump with a fitting.

                            What I did different was add a brass 1/4" fitting under the machine for easy access, then I added a solenoid to stop mains pressure on the pump by opening only when it is drawing. Plus I re-plumbed over-pressure to the water tank (which now fills UP and needs to be emptied). This is more complicated as there is very little room - I needed to move the controller module to fit the solenoid.

                            The up side is an unlimited water supply, easy removal, and no chance to damage the pump :-)

                            Cheers, Guys!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                              Originally posted by 534651534E340 link=1257849256/27#27 date=1259101550
                              Summary (for those who dont want to read the garble):
                              Is a PID worth it? No its not worth it.
                              Why do it? it will improve your coffee & consistency for au$60 & a few hrs effort.
                              For a HX machine, that is very debatable Greg....

                              Mal.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Anyones Giotto & other HX Modifications

                                Originally posted by 1233383F251C1B560 link=1257849256/20#20 date=1258267357
                                Originally posted by 4D544240210 link=1257849256/14#14 date=1258029973
                                One that I have always wanted to try, but havent gotten around to, is removing the gicleur in the group, or replacing it with a much larger diameter one.

                                Unrestricting the group by removing or drilling the group jet (gicleur) to a larger diameter results in slightly (depends on how much you drill out) cooler brewing water by allowing a quicker / greater flow of water to pass through the heat exchanger and into the group. The quicker flow, means it picks up less heat on the way through the hx.

                                Machines are set up by their manufacturers with regard to many factors within their overall design, and drilling the group jet is only one part of the equation as Mal has pointed out somewhere above in one of his posts. If you drill out the jet, you may well end up chasing your tail around other parts of the machine trying to modify something else in order to "counter" the result of drilling the jet out....
                                Maybe. I dont know that thats necessarily right, though. The flow rate through the group is in part determined by the grind, dose and tamp, isnt it? If so, I dont think that it will actually have much of an effect on brew temperature. The restrictors that people usually fool around with for brew temperature are the larger diameter thermosyphon restrictors, not the smaller diameter group jet. In any case, the better shots that I have had have mostly been with less preinfusion and faster rampup. Removing that jet seems to be pretty straightforward and fairly easily reversible, so Im willing to give it a go.

                                These manufacturer supplied innovations (part of a good manufacturers R & D) do extend the working life of mini pressurestats so no reason why they wouldnt do the same for a regular sized pressurestat.

                                That said, a sirai will last a good year in large cafe use so it could be said that to switch through some kind of relay is not necessarily required when there are other things to service or replace annually (or even twice annually depending on the situation) the sirai being just one of them.
                                The thing is that I dont actually like the sirai stats. Everyone seems to ooh and aah over the fact that they are "commercial" and rebuildable, but I think that the mater and ceme stats just do a better job. My home machine has a mater stat that tops out at just below 1.3 bar and bottoms out at 1.2 bar and has done so since I set it to do that a year or two ago. In contrast, Im led to believe that the Giotto Premium Plus that I have at work has a Sirai stat and over the past few months I have seen it top out at anywhere from 1.1 to 1.3 bar, with a deadband of maybe 0.15 or 0.2 bar. This might be because the sirai stat membrane gradually hardens. So Id probably rather have a mater or ceme stat switching through a relay than a sirai stat, regardless of whether we were talking about a commercial machine or a domestic machine.

                                Cheers,
                                Luca

                                Comment

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