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Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

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  • Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

    If you own a black Vibiemme Domobar Super (any model) please read this article on my website:
    http://home.surewest.net/frcn/Coffee/VBMrust.html

    I have discovered some serious rust in my machine.

  • #2
    Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

    Theres a similar discussion over on Coffeegeek, so there may be other ppl having this issue.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

      The "X-posted in the title meant that it was cross-posted- I have the same post on Coffee geek as well as a detailed thread on Home barista.com.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

        Originally posted by 6D5E515B466078113F0 link=1261423233/2#2 date=1261438829
        The "X-posted in the title meant that it was cross-posted- I have the same post on Coffee geek as well as a detailed thread on Home barista.com.
        Ohhhh x-posted.... Sorry Randy.. Many may never have read all the finer details and terms that many forums state in there T&C etc etc..

        I like it when people say x-posted... At least when attempting to find a problem / answer I am aware that search results may not be exact etc..

        In addition, many think cross posting is just for one forum, but can be across many forums...

        Further more... Like ya post, the detail ya went into and the local fix.... Am assuming that the manufacturer has been advised; thus the root cause fixed..

        Keep up the great web page...

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

          No problem. I have contacted the US importer and they told me that I am the first to report this, and was asked if I lived near water! I dont.

          My fear at this point is that there are a lot of folks who have this happening and do not know it because the powder coating holds the bracket well after the spot welds have rusted away. By the time they push on the bracket and the powder coating cracks and allows the bracket to come loose, the rust will be as bad or worse than mine. Not everyone has the resources to do the sort of repairs and fabrication that I do.

          The test is to press down hard on the outer edge of the support. The owner needs to crack the powder coating holding it on the side wall of the chassis. Once that happens, if the sport welds have rusted the bracket will fall right off.

          Whether you call it a design flaw, a manufacturing defect, or a lack of attention to detail, the one thing I would recommend is to NOT buy a black VBM.. get it in stainless or get something else.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

            Hi all/Randy

            As I understand, the vast majority of aussie machines have a lip in the front plate to direct water when backflushing to the drip tray. In older flat front machines, I guess it might run down behind the drip tray?

            Id suggest that if you own an older machine (most of which are from the previous importer) that its probably a great idea to have a wipe under the drip tray when you backwash....

            I am sure that ECA will respond in due course as well....

            Chris

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

              Originally posted by 1C292423170B272E2E2D2D480 link=1261423233/5#5 date=1261452741
              Hi all/Randy

              As I understand, the vast majority of aussie machines have a lip in the front plate to direct water....

              Id suggest that if you own an older machine (most of which are from the previous importer) that its probably a great idea to have a wipe under the drip tray when you backwash...
              Just to be clear, this ONLY affects the BLACK machines and not the stainless models.

              In my review from 2007 one of my complaints was that water could bypass the drip tray, but the amount was negligible. The lip helps, but is not a cure for the problem my machine exhibited.

              The problem is that where the rust occurs is not AT ALL accessible. Even high humidity, over time, is sufficient to cause it. The area in question is such that once water does get it it cannot be easily removed, and worse, the rust is not at all visible until the bracket falls off.

              One over-filling and flooding of the drip tray.. just once, or a few spilled mls of water would be all that it would take to start the problem.

              I do hope my machine is the only one... But I doubt it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

                I got a black one about 2 years ago now, and Ive noticed rust in a few spots on the chassis. Kicking myself for not getting a SS version, and tbh I cant believe they didnt go to more effort rustproofing such a machine. Next time Im home Ill have to check out the drip tray supports, cheers Randy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

                  I recently started this thread http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1260663210/new in an effort to understand why the group heads on some machines flex, in the end I concluded it was because of the light weight material used in the frame/chassis of some.
                  Im not suggesting this is the case with the Domobar, however in light of Randys post it does raise some concerns regarding quality control, suitability of materials used and fabrication methods in some E61 machines.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

                    Originally posted by 447778726F495138160 link=1261423233/6#6 date=1261464344
                    The problem is that where the rust occurs is not AT ALL accessible.
                    Actually, I think the problem is that if its ferrous, it can rust.

                    Originally posted by 447778726F495138160 link=1261423233/6#6 date=1261464344
                    Even high humidity, over time, is sufficient to cause it.
                    Gee Randy, surely there are plenty of ferrous materials around your home. Is your place falling to bits because of it?

                    To warn people worldwide not to buy a black VBM because your two year old model has rust is a bit of a long bow imho. There have been several changes made to the VBM over the past two years. I know the current AU importers are diligent and it was they who initiated the change to the lip on the front.

                    Originally posted by 4F737A6277160 link=1261423233/8#8 date=1261568386
                    Im not suggesting this is the case with the Domobar, however in light of Randys post it does raise some concerns regarding quality control, suitability of materials used and fabrication methods in some E61 machines.
                    Jon, if you have a car, lean on any panel and it will and should flex. Im no engineer but imagine it would take considerable bracing to make that 4.5kg lump of brass that we all admire totally rigid against the force applied when inserting the group handle. When the day comes that a group comes away from the machine while Im doing this, then and only then will I begin to worry.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

                      Originally posted by 59787373746E1D0 link=1261423233/9#9 date=1261570536
                      Jon, if you have a car, lean on any panel and it will and should flex.  Im no engineer but imagine it would take considerable bracing to make that 4.5kg lump of brass that we all admire totally rigid against the force applied when inserting the group handle.  When the day comes that a group comes away from the machine while Im doing this, then and only then will I begin to worry.
                      If you notice when the covers are off your machine, all the copper tubing attached to the Group Head will have at least two bends (all machines that I have played around with have been like this), between the Head and the Boiler/HX or where-ever else they may be connected. This ensures that any applied torque is relieved through the torsional flex of the copper tubing thereby preventing any untoward flexing at fixed connections. Its common practice to do this with any pipework leading away from fixtures where vibration or flexure is possible or likely.

                      This effectively takes care of any issues that may arise relating to the movement of the Group when locking in the GH. If you have a machine that doesnt relieve rotational forces applied to the pipework in this way, then yes, it may possibly lead to eventual failure of the copper tubing at one or more connections but it would take an awfully long time I believe....

                      Mal.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

                        Originally posted by 78595252554F3C0 link=1261423233/9#9 date=1261570536
                        Gee Randy, surely there are plenty of ferrous materials around your home.  Is your place falling to bits because of it?

                        To warn people worldwide not to buy a black VBM because your two year old model has rust is a bit of a long bow imho.
                        IMO, your  attitude is not only unhelpful, it demonstrates a lack of understanding of this specific problem, as well as being insulting.



                        The rust I show in the photographs (one of which I have added added above) takes place in an area that is totally hidden from the user.  Yes, I understand that ferrous metals rust. That is why they are normally treated- paint, plating, galvanizing, or other treatments are used to protect it from exposure.

                        The problem with the VBM black machines is this: The raw metals seem to have a coating on them applied before the construction of the chassis. It is a light gray color. The supports for the drip tray are SPOT WELDED to the chassis. This process produces high heat and by definition MUST melt a bit of the metal together...  in spots. This burns through the protective coating. After this the entire chassis was powder coated.. BUT, the powder coating (at least in my case) was not applied to the area concealed by the bracket which includes the area "sandwiched" where the bracket sits upon the base of the chassis- the vary same area that was spot welded, exposing raw steel which is a ferrous metal.. with me so far?

                        To exacerbate this problem, the powder coating seals the visible edge of tat support bracket along the side of the chassis, and even more so to the base of the chassis. But the powder coating does not seal the hidden edge of the support, nor does it even coat the side of the chassis under the bracket.

                        Now, over time, that area, under the drip tray, is exposed to a high-humidity environment. If the drip tray spills during removal or floods over from not being dumped in time, or any other number of factors that might introduce any additional moisture in there that gets behind these brackets, the rust begins. Where does it start? UNDER the brackets where it cannot be seen. Once water or moisture gets into that area there is NO WAY for the consumer to even know it has penetrated this sandwiched area, and further, no simple way to get it out.

                        If you examine my photos carefully you will notice that there are areas of the chassis, concealed by these two brackets, that are not protected by powder coating that DID NOT RUST. This would seem to indicate that the spot welding played some part in this.

                        The real problem is not threat there is rust, but the extent of damage that can be done before the owner even knows it took place. The brackets will not come loose until the rust gets so bad that the spot welds are ALL totally oxidized away and the powder coating that is then holding the bracket in place breaks away.

                        The powder coating will break away either from force from the owner (purposely, or during cleaning or inserting the drip tray, etc., or even from vibrations during operation of the machine), or when the rust progresses so far that the metal under the powder coating rusts so badly that the powder coating is no longer adhering to the metal. Note the bubbled areas of powder coating along where the edge of the bracket resided. These would be difficult to discern by the owner unless they were probed with a pointed tool. Visually, they appear to be like over-applied paint. I never noticed them until after the bracket came off. Who would think of examining that area with a bright light to check for such a thing?

                        Since this is in an area that a reasonable person would assume that might be subject to moisture, it would also be reasonable to assume that the factory would protect that area from that same moisture. Apparently they did assume that some water might get into there as there are places that seem to be designed to allow water drain away (check the way a gap in the corners of the chassiss left open), just in case such an incident occurs. At the same time, it is reasonable for an owner to assume that metals in these areas would be protected from rust.  This assumption might be assumed to go even further for the consumer after spending $1700 USD on a machine that makes coffee.

                        I ask in my article for folks to do a test of their machine and report whether there are any signs of rust or not, or if the brackets are loose, etc. I understand welding and the powder coating process and do not believe that my machine is the only one that the manufacturing process left this area in question unprotected.

                        To repeat myself, the problem is that, I believe that if the consumer is ignorant of this problem it will eventually result in the same outcome as I have experienced. It would just be a matter of time.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

                          Guys, play nice please  :-?

                          Currently, it looks to me like we have 1 case worldwide. Seems to me that there are 2 possibilities:
                          [*]There is a problem with frame build of one machine[*]There is a problem on a larger scale

                          Rather than squealing loudly and broadcasting it all over every coffee based forum worldwide, have you referred the issue to the US importer and has the importer raised the issue in Milan?  :-?

                          We live in vastly different climates and what is a very disappointing issue with one machine may well be just that...

                          I spoke with ECA two days ago and they have referred it to Italy for a response for the Australian market. They also informed me that the vast majority of Australian DS stock is stainless.

                          Hopefully, Aussie owners will have something to read shortly and I hope you can get some answers as well Randy.

                          Good luck Randy. I hope you can get a satisfactory resolution.

                          2mcm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

                            Originally posted by 124D554348434F464645454D414E200 link=1261423233/12#12 date=1261597087
                            Rather than squealing loudly and broadcasting it all over every coffee based forum worldwide, have you referred the issue to the US importer and has the importer raised the issue in Milan?
                            I do (did) have a relationship with the US importer. You see, I worked with them when I created the owners manual.

                            At this point they did say that I was the only one to report this thus far, and the only they had seen (so they said to me). I was asked if I lived near water.. Further, it was said that either something happened to mine, or no one else uses their machine. :-?

                            IMO, if mine is the only one, then I am owed a new chassis as it is a manufacturing fault. On the other hand, I doubt it is only mine. If I were the on the other end of this, I would be in CYA mode in a hurry.

                            Still, the reason I put this info on my website is so that if this is happening to other users they can mitigate the problem as soon as is possible. I would suggest that anyone with a black model constructed in this way to spray some heavy duty, penetrating rust preventative into that void.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Vibiemme Domobar Super black - owners please read (x-posted)

                              All of that sounds reasonable to me Randy.

                              Hopefully your importer will raise the issue with VBM and some resolution to your issues can be found...

                              I agree with you that a rust treatment certainly wont do any harm...

                              Comment

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