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  • Expobar Minore III

    Im a metallurgist, so boilers, grinding, leaching (what you guys call extraction) and PID control are my bread and butter. Obviously i can see the simplicity of a HX (another tool of my trade) machine, but the idea of twin boilers, one boiler and one water heater to be exact and PID control sound like the perfect technical solution for repeatability and perfection. So why wouldnt i get the twin boiler machine over the HX machines? Im torn. I dont know what to get.

    Bit of background. I make lattes, everyone who comes round has lattes, nobody has sugar, ever. I dont mind a ristretto, but i never make them. Currently i have a gaggia baby twin which is surprisingly awesome for the price, but milk frothing leaves a lot to be desired. By surprisingly awesome, i mean that i can make a coffee at home that is 98% as good as the best cafes in town. But when entertaining, the milk frothing is annoying and latte art is limited to drawing arses on the top, though i maintain they are peaches.

  • #2
    Re: Expobar Minore III

    One factor mentioned around here previously is the amount of water in the brew path and the potential impact on its freshness.  This is particularly relevant to the Minore with 1.8L brew boiler vs an HX, which Ive never found specs on but assume is a 100 ml or two, or three.

    A PID and HX pre-heat on a 1.8L boiler sounds... unnecessarily large - a lot of shots/rinses to turn it over.

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    • #3
      Re: Expobar Minore III

      Originally posted by 4F504E250 link=1269704254/0#0 date=1269704254
      leaching (what you guys call extraction)
      you mean.....extraction(what you call leaching) ;D

      Originally posted by 56464457405C250 link=1269704254/1#1 date=1269726247
      One factor mentioned around here previously is the amount of water in the brew path and the potential impact on its freshness.This is particularly relevant to the Minore with 1.8L brew boiler vs an HX, which Ive never found specs on but assume is a 100 ml or two, or three.

      A PID and HX pre-heat on a 1.8L boiler sounds... unnecessarily large - a lot of shots/rinses to turn it over.
      This is something i find well done on the Della Corte mini with a 500ml brew boiler and 1500ml steam boiler......

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      • #4
        Re: Expobar Minore III

        Originally posted by 405F412A0 link=1269704254/0#0 date=1269704254
        the idea of twin boilers, one boiler and one water heater to be exact and PID control sound like the perfect technical solution for repeatability and perfection.So why wouldnt i get the twin boiler machine over the HX machines?Im torn.I dont know what to get.
        If you have the money go with your head and buy the twin boiler.
        Sounds to me like your gut is leading you that way too.

        I had a similar decision to make a few years ago but with a Silvia v Expobar Leva (HX).
        I had a lot less idea about the technical aspects at the time but had researched enough to know that the HX was a lot less finicky to use and maintain (IMO).
        Id almost settled on the Silvia but my gut feel was something didnt suit me.
        Fortunately I was in a position to be able to afford the HX so after a few more questions to the supplier I settled on the Expobar and have been more than happy since.

        Now, I could have afforded the Minore as well but I prefer less bling and the digital readout to me was over the top.

        Today I may have made a different decision but as my Leva is in tune and running sweetly, maybe with hindsight Id still make the same choice.

        You have to weigh up your needs and wants plus all the pros and cons and then decide what best fits you.

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        • #5
          Re: Expobar Minore III

          Originally posted by 48585A495E423B0 link=1269704254/1#1 date=1269726247
          One factor mentioned around here previously is the amount of water in the brew path and the potential impact on its freshness.
          OK, so in a closed system how does the freshness of water change, or will it still taste like its millions of years old. Should i get some hydrogen and burn it to make my own fresh water? Is this similar to the freshly ground salt conundrum? I love freshly ground salt, you can taste that its recently become smaller. Seriously though, is this just a myth, or can someone tell me how much water is too much, how long it takes to age and how it ages in a closed system.

          Also obviously the steam boiler isnt flooded, so is the water heater flooded, or kept at say half full? Is there anyone with a minore III who can taste the difference between say the 3rd shot and the 30th? Should i be concerned or is there a point where a coffee is good enough?

          Also the water heater inlet passes through the steam boiler heat exchanger for preheating. So clearly the first shot or rinse will draw in water over 100 degrees into the water heater, and depending on how slow i am, that will continue, unless the heat exchanger is either very small or poor. Does anyone have any experience with temperature stability over a series of shots?

          oh and its leaching

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          • #6
            Re: Expobar Minore III

            Originally posted by 534C52390 link=1269704254/4#4 date=1269740356
            hydrogen and burn it
            No, no - pure H2O has a completely different set of problems that the chemists around here have tried to explain as well.

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            • #7
              Re: Expobar Minore III

              Originally posted by 657A640F0 link=1269704254/0#0 date=1269704254
              Im a metallurgist, so boilers, grinding, leaching (what you guys call extraction) and PID control are my bread and butter.  Obviously i can see the simplicity of a HX (another tool of my trade) machine, but the idea of twin boilers, one boiler and one water heater to be exact and PID control sound like the perfect technical solution for repeatability and perfection.  So why wouldnt i get the twin boiler machine over the HX machines?
              Hi juk and welcome...

              No reason whatsoever to not go dual boiler...Just keep the water moving through the boilers, as you should in any machine...

              If you like the idea of the Minore III, have a look at http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1260516383

              We would of course be delighted to assist with either

              Chris

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Expobar Minore III

                Originally posted by 5A455B300 link=1269704254/4#4 date=1269740356
                oh and its leaching
                In my mind the difference between leaching and extraction is which bit I am consuming.

                When I was looking for my latest machine I too tossed up between a twin boiler and an Hx. The main advantage of the twin was easy brew temperature adjustment; of the Hx it was freshly heated water for each cup.

                Since I am the only regular coffee consumer from this machine, and consume very modestly, the fresh water won.

                I suspect the differences in the cup between two otherwise identical machines would be miniscule.

                In terms of steaming milk for lattés, either design, if well executed, will give great results.

                Greg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Expobar Minore III

                  Originally posted by 312E305B0 link=1269704254/0#0 date=1269704254
                  PID control are my bread and butter
                  Now all we have to do is get you into roasting, send you a KKTO beta pack and get you started on fitting a PID to a turbo oven!

                  what was your address?

                  ;D ;D

                  Originally posted by 1C293E3C0C3429363A373F5B0 link=1269704254/7#7 date=1269745059
                  I suspect the differences in the cup between two otherwise identical machines would be miniscule.

                  In terms of steaming milk for lattés, either design, if well executed, will give great results.
                  I couldnt agree more, i could never taste the difference, and as greg said, brew temp control is a big plus for the twins!

                  Ok, do us a favour and define extraction and leaching, we know your dying to ;D

                  cheers
                  warren

                  PS welcome to coffeesnobs mate [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Expobar Minore III

                    "No reason whatsoever to not go dual boiler" and "I suspect the differences in the cup between two otherwise identical machines would be miniscule."

                    Thats the feedback i was looking for.

                    I checked out the Izzo Alex Duetto you linked to, and thats a pricey little number, you wouldnt think that the euro was at record lows right now.  Im definitely going to have to stick below the  $3k mark, and im going to have issues getting that past the fun police who thinks my coffee tastes "fine".

                    Also in the other thread you mention "Minore is asthmatic in comparison"  And i just dont get why when its got a 2kW element, why put a 2kW element in if youre not going to  use it, and if you are useing then where is your 2kW going???

                    "Ok, do us a favour and define extraction and leaching, we know your dying to ."
                    Technically, extraction is crushing, grinding, leaching for coffee, for gold it would be crushing, grinding, gravity, leaching, adsorption, solid/liquid separation, stripping, electrowinning, calcining, smelting, refining.  In a coffee grinder, the beans are sortof crushed, sortof impacted prior to proper grinding, so it makes coffee a 3 stage extraction, with leaching being a stage where just the essences are taken into solution.

                    Thanks for the tips on the machines lads.

                    On the roasting, i was just going to use a popcorn maker when my coffee bushes started producing, should be next year for that. Besides, for $32 for a kilo of beans delivered to your door that make the best coffee ive ever had, reliably and repeatably, makes it just not worth fixing something that aint broke.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Expobar Minore III

                      Im a lurker who has finally decided to register and use the expertise that is so freely available. I too am verging on ordering a Minore III so thanks for this little thread. It has helped me confirm my choice.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Expobar Minore III

                        Originally posted by 6A756B000 link=1269704254/9#9 date=1269762021
                        Also in the other thread you mention "Minore is asthmatic in comparison"  And i just dont get why when its got a 2kW element, why put a 2kW element in if youre not going to  use it, and if you are useing then where is your 2kW going???
                        Ahh grasshopper, think not only about the size of the lungs but also the straw they have to breathe through... ;D

                        The Minore III has narrow valve diameters....

                        Chris

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Expobar Minore III

                          Originally posted by 554A543F0 link=1269704254/0#0 date=1269704254
                          PID control are my bread and butter.
                          Process Control and SCADA is/was the bread and butter of quite a few of us here on CS "juk" so you are in good company.... 8-)

                          Mal.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Expobar Minore III

                            Compact Oxford English Dictionary

                            leach
                            http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/leach?view=uk

                            • verb remove (a soluble substance) from soil or other material by the action of rainwater or another liquid passing through it.

                            — ORIGIN Old English, "to water".


                            extract
                            http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/extract?view=uk

                            • verb /ikstrakt/ 1 remove with care or effort. 2 obtain (money, information, etc.) from someone unwilling to give it. 3 obtain (a substance or resource) from something by a special method.

                            — ORIGIN Latin extrahere ‘draw out’.

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