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What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

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  • #16
    Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

    Originally posted by 54616C6B5F436F66666565000 link=1303098386/11#11 date=1303185406
    outlets in Australia will not sell hot runners. We certainly wont.
    Thats for sure. My VBM from Chris at Talk Coffee is always ready to rock & roll once heated up to temp.

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    • #17
      Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

      The PID may not be essential, but it will be a valuable addition on days when I want to experiment with different beans. So I think I will have that as my list of requirements.

      I still dont get the HX and dual boiler debacle. With the dual boiler, I understand I will be able to steam my milk while my espresso is being extracted. This will be a big improvement for me, as my Silvia is only a single boiler. However, is the HX machine be able to extract and steam at the same time?

      So far, with the above thoughts in mind, I can only think of the Expobar Minore IV being the only contender for my needs, unless there are some more options out there for me, Chris? Im happy with the Minores price range.

      Thank you all again for your kind feedback and advice.

      Cheers,
      Darryl.

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      • #18
        Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

        Originally posted by 292D363C440 link=1303098386/16#16 date=1303216795
        is the HX machine be able to extract and steam at the same time?
        Yes

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        • #19
          Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

          .
          Originally posted by 3F3B202A520 link=1303098386/16#16 date=1303216795
          I still dont get the HX and dual boiler debacle
          I think with a PID on a HX machine you can not set the temp, but are able to see what the temp is at the time of the shot. I guess cooling flushes are the way to control the temp on a hx machine. (pls correct me if Im wrong)

          With a dual boiler, you have one boiler for steam thats consistant and one boiler controled by the PID (adjustable) that is for espresso extraction.

          If my thoughts are correct, a more controlable machine would be the dual boiler.

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          • #20
            Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

            Originally posted by 103C3F3A3D0C04530 link=1303098386/18#18 date=1303242458
            .
            Originally posted by 3F3B202A520 link=1303098386/16#16 date=1303216795
            I still dont get the HX and dual boiler debacle
            I think with a PID on a HX machine you can not set the temp, but are able to see what the temp is at the time of the shot. I guess cooling flushes are the way to control the temp on a hx machine. (pls correct me if Im wrong)

            With a dual boiler, you have one boiler for steam thats consistant and one boiler controled by the PID (adjustable) that is for espresso extraction.

            If my thoughts are correct, a more controlable machine would be the dual boiler.
            Hi Ronin,

            You are sorth of right there and sort of not

            With an e-61 style HX machine, water which ends up at the puck is flash heated by passing from the tank, through a pipe in the boiler (the HX) and then to the group. The design of the HX will significantly influence the ultimate temperature at the group and is critical in the manufacture of a user friendly machine. Bad design here can lead to massive cooling shots or coled runners.

            The group itself is heated by the thermosyphon- essentially a flow of hotter boiler water to the group. Again, if there is too little or too much flow, the machine may run hot or cold. As the boiler water will be boiling and at pressure, it may well be 120oC, which is much too hot for coffee.

            The pressurestat governs boiler pressure and more pressure = hotter and vice versa. Increasing pressure will have an influence at the group. Just how much will be dictated by the combination of HX design and the use of restrictors to govern flow in the thermosyphon.  Lots of hot runners may have poor HX design coupled with no restrictors. These are the dogs of the HX world

            So, to come back to your question/statement. The PID in something like an Alex will display raw data at the boiler as its the "cleanest" data. Increasing or decreasing temperature at the PID will have an effect on shot temperature, but also with steam temperature and quality as well, as we are changing the temperature of the entire boiler/HX system. A few  degrees either way is doable, but beyond that, the other factors will lead to a less than satisfactory experience. Changing the PID settings are akin to turning the screw on a pressurestat.

            With a dual boiler, you have far more control as you influence the pressure of the shot boiler without compromising steam. Changes of up to 10 deg at the group can be achieved.

            Hope this explains things for you.

            Chris

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            • #21
              Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

              Heh.... I put up the "cooling flush" point up as a straw man - it never hurts to explain again that you should never need one. I certainly dont. I guess this thread proves the misconception is still out there.

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              • #22
                Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                I read from another thread that this other dude modified his Minore III with a Synesso steam wand. I dont see the point of this upgrade at all.

                I know Im jumping the gun here (havent even owned any of the machines mentioned above) and dont understand the point of upgrading a perfectly decent machine, what potential upgrade would one want/need when their machine is already equipped with a PID and a dual boiler?

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                • #23
                  Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                  Originally posted by 20243F354D0 link=1303098386/21#21 date=1303252213
                  I read from another thread that this other dude modified his Minore III with a Synesso steam wand. I dont see the point of this upgrade at all.

                  I know Im jumping the gun here (havent even owned any of the machines mentioned above) and dont understand the point of upgrading a perfectly decent machine, what potential upgrade would one want/need when their machine is already equipped with a PID and a dual boiler?
                  Playing around with a 1 hole, 2 hole, 3 hole or 4 hole tip can make a big difference to how your milk is textured, and the angle of the jug when texturing (comfort or work space). Also personal prefferences for shape of steam wand based on personal preffered ergonomics. Doesnt get as big a mention as pulling a good shot, as a good shot is where it starts, and aficionados are probably not into milky drinks as much.

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                  • #24
                    Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                    Originally posted by 7275646475627164787F7D75100 link=1303098386/22#22 date=1303321148
                    Playing around with a 1 hole, 2 hole, 3 hole or 4 hole tip can make a big difference to how your milk is textured, and the angle of the jug when texturing (comfort or work space).
                    The Silvia V2 has only one hole, but I think the inconsistently textured milk (for latte art) is due to the machines inability to maintain a steady stream of steam. While the boiler is heating up for steam, the steam knob needs to be loosened for it to bleed for awhile. And then after awhile, Ill just turn the machine on for a few seconds (10 seconds or so) until it maintains a consistent stream. Otherwise, you will see sudden blasts of steam which makes texturing a little hard to predict.

                    However, I didnt know about the amount of holes on the steam wand could make a difference. Thanks for the tip.

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                    • #25
                      Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                      Originally posted by 6F6B707A020 link=1303098386/0#0 date=1303098386
                      Like every experienced Rancilio Silvia/Rocky prosumers, I am tired of the additional preliminary steps needed on the Silvia like temperature surfing, bleeding water out the steam wand prior to steaming, and waiting for a couple of minutes between espresso shots.
                      Darryl,
                      If youre not wanting to blow a large wad of cash, there is another way. Upgrade the grinder (I would personally highly recommend a Macap ) and put a PID on the Silvia.

                      This does not transform it into a HX class performer in terms of infinite steam etc, but it means you dont have to fluff around.

                      I usually make at least one milk drink. So I switch on, and when it is hot enough - stretch the milk. When the PID shows it is about 124C (on mine - it depends on where and how the probe goes on the boiler..) I clear the water from the wand into a latté glass and go. The temperature will slowly fall but you can stretch 2 lattés with constant pressure. Then it is on with the portafilter and I run water into two glasses (to drop back to brew temp). Itll fall to about 89C, and I grind, tamp, and then it is ready at perfect brew temp.

                      The PID (or possibly even just a humble temperature indication) completely transforms the device.

                      Just another option!

                      Cheers
                      /Kevin

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                      • #26
                        Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                        I have both a Giotto Premium Plus, and recently upgraded to an Alex Duetto ii. I think both machines are excellent. The GPP cant be faulted for build quality and performance. The main reason why I went to the Alex was obsession :P But i think that any decent HX machine will consistently better shots than a silvia coz of the thermal stability of the E61 head, and of course the progressive preinfusion with this design that brews the coffee for a few seconds before extracting the shot.

                        I plan to put the GPP up for sale very soon, but the site rules say I need to put up at least 5 posts before I can :P

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                          Originally posted by 7B51405D515E300 link=1303098386/25#25 date=1303616313
                          Giotto Premium Pro up for sale very soon
                          Hi Kapman,

                          Best not to confuse a potential buyer by lisitng something which doesnt exist. Its either a Giotto Professional (rotary pump plumbed) or a Giotto Premium Plus (vibe pump tank).

                          It looks like yours is a Premium Plus, so it might perhaps be worth going back over your other posts today to edit them so theyre correct?

                          Cheers

                          Chris

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                            Having gone from a Silvia to a Duetto II, I have to say, if you can spend the dollars, do it..

                            Although there are probably a lot of machines for a lot less that can do an admirable job of making as good a coffee as a Duetto II, the whole idea behind buying the best you can afford is simply "because you can". The fact you own one, the build quality, and the "aura" which surrounds it cant be beaten (unless you own a GS3 or a Speedster, then its questionable )

                            Its why people buy Ferraris or Lamborghinis.. there are plenty of cars that might drive just as well and be just as quick, but theyre not the same are they?

                            If you want to spend a bit less, have a look at the Expobar Minore III.. Ive played with a few and theyre excellent for the money.

                            Im firmly planted in the Dual Boiler camp.. I just love the idea of steam and brew being completely independent of each other and regulated accordingly.

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                            • #29
                              Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                              I agree, dual boiler, the engineering makes sense.
                              The Duetto, Im saving up for one, and have looked at the Expobar Minore III, but you also mentioned the Expobar Minore III, which is $1200 cheaper (and I love the roller wheel between the lever and switch), if you had to rate and compare them, besides emotion, why go the extra $1200 and buy the duetto and not the Expobar Minore III ?

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                              • #30
                                Re: What now, Silvia? Maybe the Izzo Alex Duetto II or Rocket Giotto Premium Plus?

                                Originally posted by 57504141504754415D5A5850350 link=1303098386/28#28 date=1305875881
                                if you had to rate and compare them, besides emotion, why go the extra $1200 and buy the duetto and not the Expobar Minore III ?
                                Or....

                                The new Diadema "Junior Extra" Dual Boiler with PID Control and other features. A very classy machine in all areas that count.... 8-)

                                Mal.

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