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  • Giotto or Veneziano?

    What am I doing here again...?! I was certain once I bought the Minore III that my upgrading days were over. Yet I find myself sitting here pondering again.

    The Minore replaced the Silvia which had trouble keeping up in the steam department when dealing with large groups. Trouble is the Minore isnt that much better, despite a 1.7L steam boiler (apparently something to do with the taps slows it down). Ive got an ECM Veneziano A2 (2 group volumetric) which I fire up occasionally for really big groups but the kitchens too small for that.

    Recently I heard about a Veneziano S1 going for sale (a single group big brother to the Giotto) which sounded to be a good companion to the A2, apart from the $3500 price tag (I paid $1100 for the A2). I know S1s arent exactly thick on the ground to say the least and that adds an element of appeal. Trouble is, on discussing the merits of the S1 with a client they offered me a Giotto Evoluzione for a vey good price! The Giotto loses a bit of appeal on the grounds that there are so many of them out there but in itself I believe its a caable performer.

    As far as I can tell both have a rotary pump and a tank with the option to plumb in. The main difference appears to be the Veneziano has a 2.5L boiler where the Giotto has a 1.8L. Frankly I think for what Im doing thats neither here nor there. The Giotto footprint is slightly smaller than the Venezianos. From what I understand the drip trays on both are pretty abysmal (compared to the lasagna dish on the Expobar anyway!).

    Its hard to come at paying more for something equivalent thats 5+ years old with the only extra being its rarity, so it sounds like a pretty simple head choice win for the Giotto. Even if they were the same price why take second-hand over a new equivalent? But for some reason Im still not convinced...

    Does anyone have any thoughts to add to the confusion?

    Greg

  • #2
    Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

    i doubt the giotto would give you any better steam recovery? they have a small element dont they? why not go for a single group commercial machine?

    Ive got a bfc 1group, it has a 4L boiler with a 2000w element and with a two hole steam tip you could have the tap open all day. With the 4 hole steam tip you are still far more limited by it being a single group than by the steam recovery.

    If youre seriously being limited by a minore III then the only path would be a single group fully commercial machine (3L boiler or more) IMO.

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    • #3
      Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

      Ive heard around the traps that the Giotto can keep up well enough so long as you dont try to steam 1L jugs and use the hot water tap to pour a long black at the same time. I presumed all similarly styled machines would perform similarly when I purchased the Expobar. If I need to cater for 30 people Ill fire up the A2, its just when its half a dozen and you want to get drinks out fast I need Id prefer something that doesnt take 40 seconds to steam enough milk for two lattes (the A2 does it in about 10!).

      So Im presuming either of these offerings will do what I need, but which...!

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      • #4
        Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

        if youre thinking of spending $3000... if i were you id be making sure they do exactly what you want! i think just assuming that they will have the steam power you require would be slightly foolish.

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        • #5
          Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

          Yep very true, I dont intend to just assume that. My understanding is the Expobar is fairly asthmatic for machines of this class but Ill definitely confirm what I can expect from any replacement before taking the plunge.

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          • #6
            Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

            Have you tried removing the pipe from inside the wand that makes it a "cool touch" wand? Obviously then it wouldnt be cool to touch anymore, but a friend of mine working in a cafe received two minore IIIs for a day when their 2grp machine was in repair and he said that thats what they did, and it made a big difference to steam pressure. Good luck!

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            • #7
              Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

              Thanks for the tip. No I havent but Id prefer to not do that as the cool touch wand is one of the things I like about it.

              So its still Veneziano vs Giotto Evoluzione (vs horrified wife! )

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              • #8
                Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

                Hi Greg,

                Both Dennis and I have first hand experience with both.

                If youd like to give me a buzz, I can talk you through what I know about them.

                NB- the Veneziano plumbs in a relatively "unusual" way. Ill run you through it if/when we chat.

                Chris

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                • #9
                  Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

                  Like you I have the ECM Veneziano (A3) version on the bench alongside the Giotto Premium Plus. That said the cup of Supremo Im drinking right now is made on the Giotto.

                  A slight difference in quality can be tasted on the A3 vs Premium Plus but this is definitely negated when going to the Evoluzione with inbuilt rotary pump.

                  From my experiences the Giotto provides the best consistency in temperature, flavor and reliability of use out of any domestic HX Machine.

                  Ive sent you through a PM as well Greg and feel free to call me anytime to chat or just shoot the breeze.

                  Roger
                  Supreme Roasters
                  (07) 3801 8989

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

                    Thanks Chris and Roger for your help and direction. I think if I can get the Veneziano at a reasonable price Ill go that way, otherwise itll be a Giotto or similar.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

                      Originally posted by 6B7E696B7C796060616D620C0 link=1304312784/0#0 date=1304312784
                      The Giotto loses a bit of appeal on the grounds that there are so many of them out there
                      Thats a good thing Greg

                      Visit one of your local Sponsors and play out the scenario on their demo Giotto and Expobar and see if there is a difference. Might be polite to take some milk and beans along ;D

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                      • #12
                        Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

                        The evoluzione ..... when the funds allow ....rotary pump is a nice feature as mentioned earlier in the thread, and can be used in non-plumbed applications.

                        We seem to hear alot of discussions about temp stabilty, etc. But dont seem to compare similar machines with the vib pump vs rotary pump factor on the same models.

                        I know people discuss "pressure" but a vib pump and rotary have different pressure characteristics (constant vs pulsed)

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                        • #13
                          Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

                          I love the quietness of the rotary pump, though the Veneziano has a rotary pump too.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

                            Wow, Im surprised the Minore has trouble keeping up with steam pressure!

                            If the Giotto is a bit too common would the VBM Super do the job? Its an HX but has a grunty 1800w element and a 2.7L boiler, rotary & plumbed in, or vibe & 4L tank, volumetric or manual. Should be about $3k new (?)

                            Or, for something more "unique", you could hunt down a BFC (Diadema) "Lira" 1 group commercial machine (huge boiler...large machine though)

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                            • #15
                              Re: Giotto or Veneziano?

                              Originally posted by 17332939323B5A0 link=1304312784/5#5 date=1304317261
                              Have you tried removing the pipe from inside the wand that makes it a "cool touch" wand? Obviously then it wouldnt be cool to touch anymore, but a friend of mine working in a cafe received two minore IIIs for a day when their 2grp machine was in repair and he said that thats what they did, and it made a big difference to steam pressure. Good luck!
                              I changed the original wand on my Leva to a cool touch and noticed no difference in steaming ability.

                              Greg, 2.0L or 3.0L would it really make much difference to recovery if you draw water off for a long black and then try to steam?
                              Wouldnt it be best on those occasions of catering for large groups that you just keep a kettle near the boil for those long blacks?

                              Comment

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