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I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

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  • I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    As few people know I have done some repair and maintain works on my preloved ECM Giotto Premium.
    Descaling, cleaning, replace some parts.
    Everything works fine now (I assume).

    In the past four days, I have tried so many shot to try to find the best coefficient (or control factors) to make the good shot.
    However, my friend and I have been drinking a lot of espresso, long black and cappuccino (4-5 double shot per day), I still can not feel its the right one. (I even throw first few since it is wrong by looking).

    This morning, I start to use EM6910 again just because I brought the Giotto back home now.
    Then the shot by EM6910 is beautiful~
    And forth milk just correct.

    I am not a experience home barista, I only use few different machine and I only have/had EM6910 & GEE (dead Ikon).
    But I just dont know what happen to the Giotto.

    I feel the steam is much stronger in Giotto, I still need to practise.
    I have adjust the themostat(pressuestat) in Giotto with a thermometer.
    I end up choosing boiler pressure is around 0.9 to 1 (default is around 1.1).
    brewing water temp is 94-96.

    I did not leave the coffee on the group head, only put it on before I brew it.
    (the very first time, I left coffee on E61 for 30sec. then the coffee get burn).

    I use KJM and Mocha-Java blend and PNG SO so far.
    Naked PF (Giottos) + VST basket.

    I attached some photos, hope people can give me some hint and tips (I have read some post)
    Cheers
    Colin




  • #2
    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Colin,

    Im no barista either, but I would have been tempted to vary the grind/tamp before playing with the pressurestat etc.

    You dont exactly say what is wrong with the shots you are pouring (e.g. too bitter? too bland? or is the r-squared from your regression model bothering you?)

    How long is it taking to extract 60mls from a double shot?
    BOSW

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

      Agree with Barry,

      Tell us what the problem is. Also just a question, why do you have the rubber grip on the steam wand? The ECM Giotto Premium is supposed to be cool touch. The older ECM Classic has a hot steam wand but the Premium onwards has cool touch steam and hot water wands. Another question...why would you leave the coffee in the group head for 30 seconds in the first place on any machine? The whole point to have the freshest coffee and the pain some people go to avoid heat and air contact as they are grinding the beans, I think some would be beside themselves hearing someone grind the beans only to leave it on the group head for half a minute before pulling a shot.

      0.9 at the boiler sounds low to me. 1.1 sounds right, but if you are able to get decent steam from 0.9 to 1.0 at the boiler then I guess its a non-issue (you might be getting very wet steam though). I have mine sitting between 1.1 and 1.2 bar. I suppose this is how you are able to achieve the 94-96 degrees at the group head? Also do you measure the temperature after the machine has been sitting for minimum of 30 minutes? Is the 94-96 degrees after a cooling flush and if so, how long a cooling flush?

      Last thing you need to do is to correct the OPV to 9bars. This will give you a much better tasting espresso but first...as Barry asked, what exactly is the problem with the taste? How does it look in the cup? The photo you posted looks quite "blond" to me. How long does it take for 60 mls to pour?

      Someone should be able to help once we understand exactly what is wrong with the taste.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

        That naked pour suggests to me that your grind is not tight enough, Perhaps play with your grinder settings to sort that out a bit more? even on my cheapy sunny-hackjob, I dont get quite so much flow happening on my 30 ml pour

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

          Hi Colin,

          Do you use the VST basket with the EM6910 as well?

          From experience you need to grind a notch or two finer with the VST basket but from the image you posted above, I agree with laughing@fate...

          or else you can overdose slightly to see if there is any difference.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

            Originally posted by 39353633342D3F345A0 link=1327274445/0#0 date=1327274445
            I end up choosing boiler pressure is around 0.9 to 1 (default is around 1.1).
            sounds too low to maintain a consistent shot temperature...

            Originally posted by 39353633342D3F345A0 link=1327274445/0#0 date=1327274445
            brewing water temp is 94-96.
            that picture shows 89... Was that after sitting?

            How long do you leave the machine on before using? Do you flush the group head first before extracting? Steam can build up in the group head due to the HX which needs to be flushed out.

            Originally posted by 39353633342D3F345A0 link=1327274445/0#0 date=1327274445
            (the very first time, I left coffee on E61 for 30sec. then the coffee get burn).
            Originally posted by 293B35233F5A0 link=1327274445/2#2 date=1327283825
            Another question...why would you leave the coffee in the group head for 30 seconds
            Im not sure if he means "extracted" for 30s, or just sitting for 30s. In either case did you flush beforehand?

            I find 25s is more "right" that 30s with the way I do things. Dont get stuck on particular numbers...

            Any chance of a vid of the whole process? You could join the Giotto Video users group

            Originally posted by 293B35233F5A0 link=1327274445/2#2 date=1327283825
            The ECM Giotto Premium is supposed to be cool touch
            Not mine Must have been a post ECM/Rocket change.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

              Originally posted by 5E565E595355370 link=1327274445/5#5 date=1327301535
              saoye wrote Today at 12:57pm:
              The ECM Giotto Premium is supposed to be cool touch


              Not mine Smiley Must have been a post ECM/Rocket change.
              Really? yours is not cool touch? My machine is definitely an ECM not Rocket though. So you reckon its when Rocket took over and continued with ECM but made some modifications...interesting. Have to read up on that.

              Originally posted by 54585B5E59405259370 link=1327274445/0#0 date=1327274445
              I did not leave the coffee on the group head, only put it on before I brew it.
              (the very first time, I left coffee on E61 for 30sec. then the coffee get burn).
              Originally posted by 5E565E595355370 link=1327274445/5#5 date=1327301535
              Im not sure if he means "extracted" for 30s, or just sitting for 30s.
              I may need to brush up on my comprehension but analysing the paragraph his first sentence mentioned not leaving the coffee in the group head the second time around as previously he left it in for 30 seconds and it got burnt. I dont think the 30 seconds referred to a 30 second pour...?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                All Giotto Premium machines- both ECM and Rocket are fitted with cool touch wands (unless a previous owner removed the teflon lining tube). Giotto Classic machines were not cool touch.

                Colin- I recommend you run your machine at 1.2 bar as steam quality will suffer at 0.9 bar. You will need a cooling flush with an unmodified machine. FWIW, assuming the colour is right, your shot looks under extracted and quite possibly cool as well. Do keep in mind that a measurement within the group will not be the same as one taken with a Scace device at the group head and puck.

                Chris

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                  Originally posted by 18475F494249454C4C4F4F474B442A0 link=1327274445/7#7 date=1327313280
                  All Giotto Premium machines- both ECM and Rocket are fitted with cool touch wands (unless a previous owner removed the teflon lining tube). Giotto Classic machines were not cool touch.

                  Thanks for the clarification Chris. I thought that was the case.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                    Originally posted by 326D756368636F666665656D616E000 link=1327274445/7#7 date=1327313280
                    All Giotto Premium machines- both ECM and Rocket are fitted with cool touch wands (unless a previous owner removed the teflon lining tube). Giotto Classic machines were not cool touch.
                    I sit corrected Do I need to spin this off to another topic? How do I tell the difference between a classic and a premium? Mine is 2007 and ECM, not Rocket, but looks like all the pictures of a Premium that I can see, and was sold as a premium (and identified as such by other snobbers). Heres the sale thread: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1310796978 The steam wand is definitely hot during steaming!

                    Colin - it was nice to watch your rebuild thread. I hope you get this going as it really can make great coffee!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                      Thanks for alls reply.
                      I was finishing some writing job, did not come back until now.

                      Let me try to explain clearly following the order.

                      The problem I found in the cup is too bitter, and lost most of the flavour (compare to EM6910).
                      The comparison between Giotto and EM6910 made with same VST basket (18g).
                      Grinding size is a bit different tho.

                      The time for EM6910 need a bit corse to reach 25s for 60ml.
                      Brewing of the Giotto is 60ml for 25s with same ground size as EM6910 but I use a bit fine to run 60ml/25s.

                      The temperature of the photos is after sitting for a while, it was 96 degree when the pressurestat setting to 1.1bar.
                      Adjust a bit to 0.9 ~1, the temperature can reduce to 94degree.
                      Then reason I reduce it to 94 is because the coffee from 96 is even far bitter.

                      The 30s left the coffee on the e61 is a mistake, I understand. >_<
                      Because I always do that when I use EM6910.

                      The protocol is most like.
                      1. grinding coffee, temping then put into the group head.
                      2. go open the fridge, and froth the milk.
                      3. when nearly in the end of froth (em6910 does not have strong steam), I press the brewing button.


                      Therefore, the very first time I use the wrong way to brew my coffee.

                      About the anti-heat grip on my steam wand, I bought that one from coffee parts.
                      I know the steam wand from Giotto should not heat up.
                      Mine also has the anti-burn pipe inside.
                      However, I still burn myself few times.
                      Therefore, when I bought some part from coffeepart (seal, shower head etc), I pick it too.


                      I hope I explain more clearly this time.

                      So I should grind it finer and adjust the pressurestat to 1.1?

                      Cheers
                      Colin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                        Originally posted by 54585B5E59405259370 link=1327274445/10#10 date=1327365292
                        The protocol is most like.
                        1. grinding coffee, temping then put into the group head.
                        2. go open the fridge, and froth the milk.
                        3. when nearly in the end of froth (em6910 does not have strong steam), I press the brewing button.
                        Hi Colin,

                        From your answers I think most of us know the multiple reasons why your coffee is harsh and bitter, but for interest sake can you please do steps 1 and 2 and when you get to step 3 measure the temperature at the Brew head.  Let us know the results. 

                        This is just the temperature side of things, but please realise that you have also locked the portafilter into the group head with the ground coffee for over 1 minute before even pulling the shot.  [smiley=shocked.gif].  No matter what machine youre using, that is just not right.  If you want to pull the shot after steaming the milk than lock the portafilter in just before you pull the shot.  most of us pull the shot first then steam the milk.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                          Originally posted by 4B474441465F4D46280 link=1327274445/10#10 date=1327365292
                          The protocol is most like.
                          1. grinding coffee, temping then put into the group head.
                          2. go open the fridge, and froth the milk.
                          3. when nearly in the end of froth (em6910 does not have strong steam), I press the brewing button.
                          Hi Colin, cooling flushes have been mentioned 3 times so far in this thread - have a read on cooling flushes with regard to E61s and I think youll notice a big difference. You may have to put the pressure back to 1.1 though since youll need to sustain ~94 degrees.

                          Originally posted by 5B4947514D280 link=1327274445/11#11 date=1327374249
                          when you get to step 3 measure the temperature at the Brew head
                          Depending on his thermometer he may not see the spike and herein lies your problem (methinks!) - you think the temperature is 94 degress but its most likely 100+ for anywhere up to 10 seconds. You wont see this with your thermometer if it takes a few seconds to move the needle from idle (80?) to 94 since by then the extra-hot bit is over, and your needle just sits on 94 degrees.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                            Hello Colin,

                            Might I suggest: www.espressocompany.com.au/how-to.htm as I think there are probably some useful pointers you may find handy.

                            Giotto premium machines do run hot which is why we developed a thermostability upgrade for them. You will need to learn and use a cooling flush with an unmodified machine. Further information can be found at http://www.talkcoffee.com.au/equipment/coffee-machine-thermostability-upgrade.php

                            Cheers

                            Chris

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                              Hi Colin,

                              The link Chris gave you really explains it in the "Texturing your Milk" video from 3:00 onwards.  It explains about staleness and the importance of pulling a shot as close as you can to texturing your milk to get the best result.

                              As a contrast to your procedure, heres my latte process from start to finish.

                              [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGvo3Qp_QdQ[/media]

                              (edit Andy - used the "media" tags so the video appears here)

                              Note the cooling flush from 2:25. 

                              Hope it helps.

                              Comment

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