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I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

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  • #16
    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks for everyones suggestion and common again.
    The mistake that I lock it to group head seems did not affect the EM6910 too much since I have done some experience (or I can not tell the difference in cup).

    But I do learn it from E61 machine.
    I think I forgot to mention the mistake I only made at the first time when I use the Giotto.
    Then I figured it out pretty soon in my first cup.
    I did not lock my PF on group head since then.

    I realize the importance of cool flushing now, I have used the cool flushing this afternoon.
    However, I did not feel much improvement in the cup.

    Due to the time limited, I wont adjust the pressurestat until weekend.

    Thanks again for everyones input, I will try the advice and the link from above.
    Then I will update what happen in my cup.

    Cheers
    Colin

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    • #17
      Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

      Step 1 remove thermometer completely (it wont help you here)
      Step 2 Adjust pressure to 1.1
      Step 3 Keep handle in head to keep it hot
      Step 4 enjoy

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      • #18
        Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

        Agree that the boiler pressure should be returned to 1.1 to 1.2 Bar.
        Saturated steam temperature at 0.9bar is 118.6 degrees C, 1.1 bar is 121.8 degrees C and 1.2 bar is 123.3 degrees C.

        I run my Giotto at 1.2, for the steaming power, and do a cooling flush before a shot to compensate.

        To my eye, the crotchless PF shot is pale from low water temperature, IMHO.

        Good luck

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        • #19
          Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

          Originally posted by 262E26212B2D4F0 link=1327274445/9#9 date=1327364336
          The steam wand is definitely hot during steaming!
          Hi Iandb, getting a little off-topic here but for Colin and yourself I think the definition for the Giotto Premium steam and hot water wand is "anti BURN" not "anti-HOT".

          The fact that you can physically touch the steam wand after a steam without giving yourself a first degree burn I guess is anti-burn. Note that it would be definitely uncomfortable if you held onto the steam wand. On my Lelit I cannot even touch the wand directly or I will get burnt. The heat on my Lelit wand would be similar to the Giotto grouphead temperature and if youve been like me (several times) just brushing the gruophead with your hand while trying to access the wands you know what a burn feels like. :

          Heres this mornings latte from my ECM Giotto. A blend of Indonesian and African Arabica with deep chocolatey flavours and low acidity.



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          • #20
            Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

            Just come back to update what happen so far.

            I follow peoples suggestion, I adjust the pressurestat to make the boiler pressure back to 1.1 now.

            I did not see too much different in the cup for the first test.
            Probably the pressure of boiler (and temp of water) is not the factor affect the bitterness.

            I start to adjust the grinder again to a bit corse and more amount.
            I also follow the cooling flushing progress for E61 machines protocol.
            The cup start t taste less bitter, but still quite bitter than same blend from EM6910.

            For the chemical residual possibility, I blind test the water (only) from Giotto group, EM6910 and filter water.
            Personally, I can not tell the different.
            I assume the chemical is not the factor affect my taste.

            However, I did found the espresso temp between Giotto and EM6910 are far different.
            I start to wonder if possible that I used to EM6910 so bad that I can not accept the ideal & proper one (ie Giotto)?

            The blend I used in the past few days is Mocha-Java (50% Yemen and Indonesia Java).
            I can taste the coco flavour in my mouth and acidity.

            Same coffee from Giotto start with bitterness and a bit chocolate in the end.
            Maybe its more close to Italian espresso?
            However, I still can not enjoy it as from EM6910.

            About frothing milk part, I still need to practise more.
            The very last one from Giotto start to have some froth..(finally).
            Before that, I only can make huge bubble and heating the milk without any froth..

            I watch the video link from saoye, its quite a lot of cooling flush (compare to the ECAs introductory video).
            I tried once with one full cup cooling flushing, the taste is pretty much the same (still bitter).
            But I did notice the KK style frothing milk, can anyone give me a head up?
            I can not figure out the secrete in the video.

            About the OPV possible issue, I can see where is located in my machine.
            However, I feel the PF with pressure gauge is quite necessary for adjust the right pressure ?(11 bar from what I have read?).

            I have the clean disk from EM6910, but did not see any post about how to use the clean disk to adjust the HX machine.
            Any one can give me some link or advice?

            I will post the video and photos later this week to show the shot I have so far.
            Cheers
            Colin

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            • #21
              Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

              Originally posted by 414D4E4B4C55474C220 link=1327274445/19#19 date=1327738211
              I watch the video link from saoye, its quite a lot of cooling flush (compare to the ECAs introductory video).
              I tried once with one full cup cooling flushing, the taste is pretty much the same (still bitter).
              But I did notice the KK style frothing milk, can anyone give me a head up?
              Hi Colin,

              Others will a better source of info re the bitterness problem, but I also fairly recently upgraded to a machine with much greater steaming power than my old one. I find the trick to using the KK method is to err on the side of minimising the time in which you are adding air to the milk. It really only takes a couple of seconds to get enough air in the milk to make very passable microfoam. You dont need to hear the pffft (sorry) sound for very long at all. I also stick my milk jug in the fridge for 5 mins before I make the coffee (and this might help partic. in Nth Qld).

              FWIW re the bitterness, are your extraction times (to the point of blonding) in a sensible range?
              Cheers
              Barry OSW

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                Thanks, BarryO for the hint.
                I did use the old fashion way from EM6910, I kept the tip of steam wand on the surface.

                I will try the advice tomorrow morning.
                (The north QLDs heat is really killing me today...)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                  Originally posted by 272B282D2A33212A440 link=1327274445/21#21 date=1327757172
                  I kept the tip of steam wand on the surface.
                  No worries Colin. After the first few seconds, and you lower the wand into the milk (and move to side of jug), it need not go very far below the surface (just far enough to stop the obvious integration of more air into the milk).

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                  • #24
                    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                    failed, failed, failed...
                    So frustrated now...
                    Again.. I can not get good espresso and even milk froth.
                    I tried three times this morning, followed peoples advice.
                    Still can not get as good as I expected.

                    I stop by the local roaster/service center- Coffee Dominion to ask the quote for calibrating service since I have done the descaling/cleaning.
                    The technician-Ben is quite friendly and patient.
                    Even there are a lot of customer behind me for ordering (which is the real business there).
                    He still listent carefully to what I said about the situation.
                    I think I mistaken this shop by their arrogant barista in front desk.

                    He quote the service is about 60-80, which I believe is a fair price for few hours professional job.
                    And it can buy me good night sleep too.
                    Of course, no guarantee I can start to make good coffee after that.
                    At least I have a ground zero to start with instead of trial and error.

                    Thanks again for people relying this subject, I will keep it posted once I got the machine back.

                    Colin

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                      Hello Colin,

                      Can I recommend that you get some training with known good (and consistent) product.

                      The Giotto will easily out hit the Sunbeam. If the cooling flush (common to older machines like yours, but not present in Giotto Premium Plus) bothers you, we can do a thermostability upgrade as well as a full service.

                      Chris

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                      • #26
                        Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                        Thanks Chris.
                        After this experience, I am thinking about taking a barista training from Coffee Dominon.
                        It is asking 60 dollars for a 3 hrs course.

                        I would love to upgrade the machine with a thermostablize mod, but I live pretty far from any big city. (as far as I know, talk coffee is at Melbourne)
                        Maybe I have to wait til I finish my degree, then I may know where I will end up with.

                        Colin

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                        • #27
                          Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                          Colin, I doubt you will learn much from a $60 per 3 hour course. More likely to find yourself with a large number of people watching a barista using a commercial machine. I suggest you do a bit more research regarding the courses that may be offered in your area.

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                          • #28
                            Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                            Hi Colin,

                            A barista course is definitely a good idea if you still cant get anywhere with all the suggestions. My last suggestion would be to post a video of your process so that we can visually see what you are doing wrong.

                            By the way, with regards to cooling flush I usually flush until I stop seeing spluttering and bellows of steam. The E61 group head is known to run hot.

                            Lastly, if you are getting big huge bubbles in your milk your steam wand is way too high from the surface of the milk and you are incorporating too much air. If you are getting no bubbles at all, I would think most likely you are overheating the milk as from the sounds of things you are incorporating air. Does your steam wand have 2 holes or 4 holes? What size jug are you using. I find the larger the jug eg a 1 L jug I have the wand about 1mm+ above the surface (for a 2 hole). For my 600ml jug I actuall have the tip just touching the surface of the milk...literally the tip just touching but the two holes are still above the surface. Remember, do not overheat your milk. when its uncomfortable for you to holdl your fingers to the jug for more than 2 seconds thats pretty much done.

                            Hopefully you can give us a video of what you are doing right now so that we can see instead of from descriptions.

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                            • #29
                              Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                              Thanks Dennis and Saoye,
                              That is what I thought about this
                              barista course" before I struggled with this Giotto.
                              I have learnt a lot from Coffeesnobs huge informative post and video (youtube) here and there.
                              I used the EM6910 pretty well now and I feel amazing how I can tell the minor different between VST and other basket and different SO bean etc.

                              The big obstacle to me this time is this Giotto should be the real commercial setup for home coffee connoisseur, then I feel I am worse than a newbie after all the advice I have from this and other website.

                              This morning I was trying to record my brewing with my camera, but failed due to the HD limited of my basic consumer DC.
                              I will make sure I will have another one to illustrate my failure this afternoon...

                              For frothing milk from my Giotto.
                              I had some better result from 1liter jar yesterday.
                              I used 600ml jar this morning twice, both of them got thin froth and big bubble.

                              I have to pick up my confidence by using the EM6910, and enjoy the coffee today.
                              So I come to my office/lab to enjoy the coffee (and working for my thesis of course >_&lt.

                              The more I put myself into the coffee journey, the more endless path feeling I have...
                              cheers
                              Colin

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

                                Hey Colin a video I made the other day that you might find of interest. To be honest Im finding the KK method bulletproof at the moment.

                                [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRx3Qds7BEw[/media]

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