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VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

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  • #16
    Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

    was thinking of getting one of these thermometer thingys - surely they arent all bad and some reference is better than nothing?

    looks like the only way to get one of these is direct from o/s ..?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

      Originally posted by 2C2A37213A372169616068580 link=1327895468/15#15 date=1331524117
      was thinking of getting one of these thermometer thingys - surely they arent all bad and some reference is better than nothing?

      looks like the only way to get one of these is direct from o/s ..?
      Get one by all means.  Its hardly "...a meat thermometer jammed into a group.".  Its a calibrated thermocouple device.  As far as catching a trout upstream, put your finger in the stream then put it in a fraction of a second down stream and I think you will find a pretty good correlation.  I fact Eric has correlated the Taylor digitherm in the group against the Scace, see the attached graph.  A very consistent correlation I would say.
      Yep the best and cheapest way is to get the gear from Eric Svendson himself.  He is also extremely helpful.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

        Originally posted by 5C717C4A1E0 link=1327895468/9#9 date=1331421734
        , I would like to qualify my comments by saying that I have no doubt HX machines work great in a heavy use environment where each shot stabilises the next but for the home user that might pull just a few shots irregularly during the day, the HX just doesnt do the job.
        Hello Bob,

        Essentially, it comes down to whether or not you would like your problems resolved....

        If you choose not to use the advice, so be it. Ultimately, it wont make much difference to the rest of us but you can have a better performing machine if you want one.

        Your comments re e-61 groups in domestic environments are incorrect though. You simply have one hot running machine which can be relatively easily calibrated.

        Ive seen thousands of e-61 machines and state categorically that your findings do not reflect my experiences.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

          Originally posted by 62575A5D69755950505353360 link=1327895468/17#17 date=1331625729
          Originally posted by 5C717C4A1E0 link=1327895468/9#9 date=1331421734
          , I would like to qualify my comments by saying that I have no doubt HX machines work great in a heavy use environment where each shot stabilises the next but for the home user that might pull just a few shots irregularly during the day, the HX just doesnt do the job.
          No problem Bob,

          Essentially, it comes down to whether or not you would like your problems resolved....

          If you choose not to use the advice, so be it. It makes little difference to the rest of us.

          Your comments re e-61 groups in domestic environments are incorrect. You simply have a hot running machine which can be relatively easily calibrated.
          Calibration will only tell me what I already know. With my digitherm installed, I now have a basis to get some control over taste. My whole point was that it shouldnt be so difficult with such an expensive machine. Flushing till the water stops boiling in the group, tells you only that the water is now <100° and you then have to trust your machines average characteristics to give you a reasonable shot. That is not good enough.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

            Originally posted by 705D5066320 link=1327895468/18#18 date=1331627983
            Calibration will only tell me what I already know.
            Nope-  It will resolve the issue.

            Originally posted by 705D5066320 link=1327895468/18#18 date=1331627983
            My whole point was that it shouldnt be so difficult with such an expensive machine. 
            Its not. Your machine is not representative of other Domobar Super machines. Sadly, regardless of how I write that, you choose to ignore it, so Ill go find a suitable wall to beat my head against and you can suit yourself.

            Good luck with your PID machine. Astute CSers, keep an eye open for a bargain given its so terrible. :

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

              Originally posted by 0C393433071B373E3E3D3D580 link=1327895468/10#10 date=1331422697
              As youre in Sydney, I suggest you speak with Charlie, Renzo or Dennis (Jetblack, Di Bartoli or cuppacoffee respectively). A Scace calibration together with the installation of appropriate thermosyphon restriction will deliver you a totally changed beast.

              Chris
              BobT - take the free advice and spend the coin with a sponsor - it may be the best thing you do with such a beautiful piece of kit

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

                Been watching this with interest, and getting straight to the point.

                Also I am writing this as the pioneer of E61 heat exchanger machine calibration for these type machines in the Australian market where by and large, before I started doing this, many machines were simply imported in their normal Italian market configuration.....and running hot / burning coffee.


                Bob, your comments re heat exchanger machines not being suitable for home use are I am afraid, simply wrong. That said they do need to firstly have been calibrated correctly either by the manufacturer or the importer or selling agent, BEFORE it comes to the end user, for the market it is being sold into. That is, you wouldnt even know any calibration had been done, and would have a really nice functioning semi commercial heat exchanger machine.

                Machines imported into the Australian market in the normal Italian market configuration, run hot for whatever reason that is acceptable in their market, but not ours.

                The advice you have been given by Chris from Talk Coffee simply, is correct.

                You have two options. Continue using the machine as is and accept that you need to do long cooling flushes before each and every coffee OR, send it to someone in the know for modification to Australian market spec. Not everyone is in the know or cares, and that is what separates the men from the boys in the market for quality coffee machines or machines to produce a quality product.

                As to scaces, thermocouples and other instruments invented to drive people over the deep end with details.....the psychology here is the more instruments you give people, and the more precise these instruments become, the more things their users will find "wrong" ie that dont fit some spec or other.

                Ultimately however, its all about anyones level of understanding of what the level of performance should be, or what the character in the resulting cup of coffee should be, you dont need an instrument to tell you that, and if it were me I would take the thermocouple out and put it in a draw where it cant do any more harm.

                You may be interested to know that when I pioneered the art of "signature speccing" (or "calibrating" if you wish) these machines for my market, I didnt use any instruments at all....I did it the old fashioned way by feel and touch and trial and error just like old time mechanics used to do when setting the timing on an engine distributor. Then I advised my manufacturer what I wanted, and ever since then they have been building the machines I import, to that (my) specification.


                My BFC / Diadema machines dont burn coffee and dont run hot, and there is no reason why yours should either, if the appropriate set up is done.

                So believe it or not, signature speccing or calibration of your machine will work really well if it has not already been done to make it suitable for our market, and if there isnt anything else amiss.

                And / or.....perhaps it is something to do with the way you manage your machine or your level of understanding. EG regarding your advice that the machine stabilizes at different temperatures, it could be said that it doesnt matter a hoot and will be subject to the length of time it is left on but not used where it cant help but overheat, and what actually matters is that it can subsequently be stabilised down to the correct temperature to make coffee and then remain reasonably stable for a period.  Leaving machines like this on for long periods without making coffee, is not best practice.

                Or....the "problem" is caused by the fact of what the operator is seeing on the aftermarket thermocouple display....

                Is there really a problem, or not?

                The only ones that can tell, are service people in the know about your particlar brand model machine.

                Long winded as usual I know, and I hope that helps.

                Attilio
                very first CS site sponsor

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

                  Originally posted by 724651475C6B775B52525151340 link=1327895468/21#21 date=1331683040
                  Machines imported into the Australian market in the normal Italian market configuration, run hot for whatever reason that is acceptable in their market, but not ours.
                  Originally posted by 724651475C6B775B52525151340 link=1327895468/21#21 date=1331683040
                  many machines were simply imported in their normal Italian market configuration.....and running hot / burning coffee.

                  Does anybody know why the Italians like their coffee burnt???

                  I still remember that youtube video of the Italian specced Izzo Vivi - it was spluttering boiling water for ages....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

                    Originally posted by 66616A6A617070040 link=1327895468/22#22 date=1331694727
                    Does anybody know why the Italians like their coffee burnt???

                    I still remember that youtube video of the Italian specced Izzo Vivi - it was spluttering boiling water for ages....
                    Yes, I can.

                    Many of their coffees are circa 50% robusta. They also often roast dark (especially roasters in the south). These coffees are best extracted at a much higher temperature than our lighter roasts.

                    Please note also that our Vivis also run at a beautiful 93 deg C (give or take). Those interested can keep an eye out for an astonishingly inexpensive Vivi/K3P package deal from Cuppacoffee later on today.

                    Chris

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

                      Originally posted by 35323939322323570 link=1327895468/22#22 date=1331694727
                      Does anybody know why the Italians like their coffee burnt???
                      I doubt they like it burnt bennett, they certainly do enjoy a darker roast than most Aussies and I prefer mine that way as well, but burnt, never.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

                        Originally posted by 0B3E3334001C3039393A3A5F0 link=1327895468/23#23 date=1331695267
                        Please note also that our Vivis also run at a beautiful 93 deg C (give or take). Those interested can keep an eye out for an astonishingly inexpensive Vivi/K3P package deal from Cuppacoffee later on today.
                        Hi Chris, thanks for the quick answer. I hope you didnt take offense to my statement about Izzos running hot. I realy did mean the Italian specced ones - I cant imagine anything that comes out of the Talk Coffee stable would be anything but perfect.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

                          So is the reverse also true? If I were to put a very dark Italian roast through my Aussie specced VBM Junior - would it be too cold an extraction for that roast level? Or is it more complex than that?

                          This also raises a good point. Whilst I disagree with BobT about his thoughts on Hx machines - mine is super stable, I have often wondered about buying a PIDd DB eg Diadema Junior extra DB or Izzo Alex Duetto so I can play around with the temp with different beans at different roast levels. Just cant justify the cost at present when the coffee tastes so good out of my VBM Jnr.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: VBM Domobar Super temperature variability

                            Originally posted by 3E3932323928285C0 link=1327895468/26#26 date=1331696190
                            So is the reverse also true? If I were to put a very dark Italian roast through my Aussie specced VBM Junior - would it be too cold an extraction for that roast level?
                            Sure is- and yes, I was aware that you were referring to Italian spec. machines, not ours. All good!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                              Nope- It will resolve the issue.



                              Its not. Your machine is not representative of other Domobar Super machines. Sadly, regardless of how I write that, you choose to ignore it, so Ill go find a suitable wall to beat my head against and you can suit yourself.

                              Good luck with your PID machine. Astute CSers, keep an eye open for a bargain given its so terrible. :
                              Chris,

                              Just found this thread. I suspect mine is running hot too and I get what you are trying to say. If I am in Brisbane, where do I get this looked at?

                              Thanks,
                              Merv

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hi Merv,

                                Not sure I can suggest an answer in Brisvegas.

                                Best bet is to let it idle for 30 min then grab a video and post it. I can then offer an opinion.

                                Cheers

                                Chris

                                Comment

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