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Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

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  • Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Hi,

    I did a search in this section of the forum on any discussions on warranties and the implied /\/ statutory warranties talked about in the ACCC site but i couldnt locate one, so i thought id start one... 

    As i recently purchased a Breville machine which comes with 2 year warranty, i started researching my next machine id like to purchase as my next step up in a few years.

    I thought as a discussion id raise this topic on why do expensive machines such as Rocket, Diadema, Vibiemme and Bezzera that i have looked at only come with 12 months warranty for a 2K+ machine, albeit you can purchase an extended warranty but why? I wouldve expected given consumer use (not commerical) that i would expect the machine to last years if looked after, and given they are double the price to overseas sellers in Europe and US, and i understand that shipping, middle man profit, end seller profit plus local service provision of the product they do need to earn a living although i beg to differ on double the oseas price (anyways thats another topic of discussion and not my main point here).

    What i wanted to talk about was why is the warranty so short that is the minimum they would possibly provide and not something 3 - 5 years on such an expensive product where they are happy to offer an extended warranty for a fee in excess of 12 mths (an ACCC and Fair Trading talk consistently about extended warranties are a waste of money as you should be entitled to warranty as implied /\/ statutory warranty for a product fitting of that products expectation on price and quality).

    Heres a short blurb from ACCC site...

    Where do consumer guarantees fit with other warranties?
    Consumer guarantees apply even if the product or service comes with a voluntary warranty or an extended warranty that you sell.

    These additional warranties do not override or limit consumer guarantees; consumers may be entitled to a repair, replacement or refund, even if any voluntary or extended warranty has expired.

    When you sell a product or service you must honour the consumer guarantees. This means that you have an obligation to help consumers with problems and cannot just refer them to the manufacturer providing an additional voluntary warranty.

    Is there a time limit on consumer guarantees?
    There are no specific rules about how long after a voluntary or manufacturer’s warranty expires that consumers may be entitled to a repair, replacement or refund under the consumer guarantees. This will depend on the product or service and the nature of the problem.


    So perhaps some CS Sponsors /\/ distrbutors would like to add to this post on how they stand behind the product in terms of such a short warranty if something goes wrong with the item outside of 12 months....

    Any other member comments i am most interested in with their experiences with these expensive brands and what i could expect from parting with 2.5 - 3K if something goes wrong after 12 mths without being more out of pocket for the machine if it stops working...

    Whilst i am not at the stage of purchasing that expensive item, it certainly begs the question why isnt the warranty better fitting for that product. Why should i pay more for an extended warranty when that product should be fit for the purpose of lasting 5+ plus without any issues.

    Btw this is not a troll type question or to cause an argument in any way shape or form...

  • #2
    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Way I see it, its more wishy washy ACCC shiny bums on seats garbage. Make it as generalised as possible so that it actually reads as nothing. :

    Real espresso machines are hugely reliable and the overwhelming majority of faults I see <5 years are due to poor hygiene and/or lousy water.

    Whereas Chinese gear really needs a longer warranty because every cent is removed from the unit cost in the design process, prosumer gear is a different kettle of fish.

    Id like the ACCC to explain why I had to pay $51 in credit card surcharge for the flights I used last weekend and why they are going to attempt to change it with more non-specific waffle which will ultimately achieve pretty much diddly squat.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

      Originally posted by 0A554D5B505B575E5E5D5D555956380 link=1339543442/1#1 date=1339544130
      Id like the ACCC to explain why I had to pay $51 in credit card surcharge for the flights I used last weekend and why they are going to attempt to change it with more non-specific waffle which will ultimately achieve pretty much diddly squat.
      This i do know about having paid $20 per person for a group of 7 to go to bali earlier this year as CC fee (total $140) to Jetstar it is definitely a ripoff fee which the RBA is now addressing this, but this i think is another topic of discussion... 

      But back to your first half of post

      Originally posted by 0A554D5B505B575E5E5D5D555956380 link=1339543442/1#1 date=1339544130
      Way I see it, its more wishy washy ACCC garbage.
      This doesnt wash with me, there is a major difference of course between chinese and italian made stuff i would expect although largely labour costs are in my expectation higher in Italy than China, having said that, some chinese made stuff if a reasonably good quality if manufacturing controls are in place, that is as an example boiler was 2.00mm thick instead of 1.00mm (this is just an example only i dont know the tolerances of boilers im not an engineer in metals) and also quality of the metal used eg stainless or brass/\/copper etc...

      But coming back to my original question why dont they stand behind their italian made products more in terms of confidence in the length of warranty...

      Originally posted by 0A554D5B505B575E5E5D5D555956380 link=1339543442/1#1 date=1339544130
      Real espresso machines are hugely reliable and the overwhelming majority of faults we see <5 years are due to poor hygiene and lousy water.Whereas Chinese gear really needs a longer warranty because every cent is removed from the unit cost in the design process, prosumer gear is a different kettle of fish.
      Its a bit like saying hey i want to charge you 3 times the price for a product its made well, made with quality components but dont expect any more than a chinese length warranty in our expectation of it lasting but they are implying that hey the item is better quality materials, better made, price is 3 times therefore it will last you for years... That is imo a warranty no befitting what is implied.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

        Actually I dont think too many sponsors are going to bother wasting time going round in circles again on this topic. Its been done before more or less, and while "the law" is whatever it is, often it seems to have been written by people that know (to use one of Chriss terms) didley squat about the stuff that want to impose rules over.

        If you purchase good quality equipment from a good quality supplier, my feeling is you will be supported well, and if you dont, you may not be supported so well. Some consumers we come across these days are simply and for want of a better word....militant.... and sometimes it seems it doesnt matter what you do for them, its never enough.

        How long is a piece of string? How long should the period of guarantee be on any particular equipment?

        Who knows.....but I can tell you, I dont think our law makers know much about the type of equipment we discuss here despite their imposing rules and regulations over all, presumably to cater for lesser helpful suppliers OR an ever increasing number of militant consumers.

        Amongst other things, I run a very busy workshop that is also an approved service and warranty provider to a few different brands.

        Some of the stories I can tell you about consumers trying their dambdest to stiff manufacturers for free repairs and service when we can tell the problems were caused by the operator themselves, would curl your straight hair. Not to mention that along the way, they dont mind stiffing the service provider as well and by that I mean, if the service provider gives in and does a repair for nix against the manufacturers ruling, its the independent service provider that is left out of pocket because he doesnt get "fixed up" by either of the other 2 parties.

        As Chris stated, there are very few legit service problems that come to light in the equipment we cater to here, that are actually "warrantable". Most are caused by the operatiors themselves. It doesnt stop them making demands however.

        And considering that individual internal components have designed in "service cycles", and they are not all designed & built by the same component manufacturer, what would we then propose? To have a different warrantable period for each different component used in the manufacturer of the total machine? Bollocks.

        This is a non topic because it will become a one sided only (consumer) discussion that doesnt take the other side into consideration.

        If you want to buy a nice coffee machine, go with one of the well accepted brands and models, and buy from a reputable source.

        And with that, Im out of here.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

          Its really irrelevant what warranty manufacturers offer. The law applies regardless.

          So like most manufacturers, with Coffee machines you get a Manufacturers Warranty of 12 months (usually), then you are covered by the Consumer Guarantee for the reasonable life of the machine.

          Its pretty straight forward to deal with a claim if you feel the fault falls within the classifications of the Consumer Guarantee, if the retailer declines your claim you will most likely end up in the Small Claims Tribunal and have your case heard there.

          As a business operator the main mistake i see customers making is confusing warranty/guarantee with insurance - if you are the cause of the failure of the equipment neither the manufacturer warranty nor consumer guarantee will apply.

          The new legislation is great for consumers where it is a genuine fault, much longer coverage, costs like freight to be borne by the supplier and greater recourse to replacement with new.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

            Originally posted by 5F6B7C6A71465A767F7F7C7C190 link=1339543442/3#3 date=1339544974
            Actually I dont think too many sponsors are going to bother wasting time going round in circles again on this topic. Its been done before more or less, and while "the law" is whatever it is, often it seems to have been written by people that know (to use one of Chriss terms) didley squat about the stuff that want to impose rules over.If you purchase good quality equipment from a good quality supplier, my feeling is you will be supported well, and if you dont, you may not be supported so well. Some consumers we come across these days are simply and for want of a better word....militant.... and sometimes it seems it doesnt matter what you do for them, its never enough.How long is a piece of string? How long should the period of guarantee be on any particular equipment?Who knows.....but I can tell you, I dont think our law makes know much about the type of equipment we discuss here despite their imposing rules and regulations over all, presumably to cater for lesser helpful suppliers OR an ever increasing number of militant consumers.Amongst other things, I run a very busy workshop that is also an approved service and warranty provider to a few different brands. Some of the stories I can tell you about consumers trying their dambdest to stiff manufacturers for free repairs and service when we can tell the problems were caused by the operator themselves, would curls your straight hair.This is a non topic because it will become a one sided only (consumer) discussion that doesnt take the other side into consideration.And with that, Im out of here.
            I can understand where you are coming from but unfortunately and maintenance is a key thing for any item being a car, machinery, computers (Im a Network Engineer do i know all about IT and providing services and expectation to deliver reliability, consistent uptime and performance that business come to expect that for the money that is spent)

            So your saying that due to poor hygene, cleaning of machine and general looking after 12 months is all i would expect a machine and its seller to stand behind it and say your on your own... Hmm doesnt sound good and lacks confidence in the product and its users.

            So whats the difference of paying as one supplier has $476 to extend the warranty from 12 mths to 5 years, are they likely to be in the same boat you say with having to deal with the same issues but expecting their machine to be fixed under warranty or extended warranty? I went through this problem with Domayne, I purchased a Saeco Incanto Sirius 5 years ago, paid extended warranty to take it to 5 yrs total, without word of a lie, it had to go back 3 times a year for failure of steam tap, logic board, boiler replacement (was the last repair, machine was regularly cleaned with a descaler as per manufacturers instructions) they refused to replace the item which was clearly so defective and a lemon, ive now ditched it a manual machine. Whilst Saeco cant be compared to one of the models i mentioned, this is what has raised the question with me for my next purchase.

            I agree whilst a local supplier and service agent can stand behind the machine in providing service but at a cost after your warranty has expired (or during first 12 mths for warranty for that matter) i still dont quite get why only 12 mths warranty.

            As for being done to death on here, i mustve missed the topic when i searched CS (my apologies for this, i know google is my friend, i am an IT worker and know this fully!)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

              Originally posted by 7963787F68726F7F631A0 link=1339543442/5#5 date=1339546076
              So your saying that due to poor hygene, cleaning of machine and general looking after 12 months is all i would expect a machine and its seller to stand behind it and say your on your own... Hmm doesnt sound good and lacks confidence in the product and its users.
              Absolutely. As an example a Giotto Premium Plus goes into a local office. It comes back dead after 8 months. The solenoid is completely clagged with scale as is the rest of the filthy, disgusting machine. Some numb nut decided to run it on mineral water. A wipe down with a cloth or a backflush? Forget it.

              We see dead machines due to RO, distilled water and severe scale. We deal with filth every day (no problem to have a machine beside the stove where you deep fry?). Where faults exist due to premature failure in well-maintained machines where the owners leave them alone- sure no problem. When owners declare themselves techs or internerd eggspurts, we look very, very closely. Where the faults are due to abuse- however well-intentioned, sorry- heres your account.

              Moral of the story is deal with reputable businesses and be fair, respectful and polite- from day one. If you have, you will find the rest of this thread is pretty much hot air as you will have helped foster a good relationship.

              Like Attilio I have more important things to do- so Ill be washing my hair.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

                Originally posted by 7F79746D757961180 link=1339543442/4#4 date=1339545707
                Its really irrelevant what warranty manufacturers offer. The law applies regardless.So like most manufacturers, with Coffee machines you get a Manufacturers Warranty of 12 months (usually), then you are covered by the Consumer Guarantee for the reasonable life of the machine.Its pretty straight forward to deal with a claim if you feel the fault falls within the classifications of the Consumer Guarantee, if the retailer declines your claim you will most likely end up in the Small Claims Tribunal and have your case heard there.As a business operator the main mistake i see customers making is confusing warranty/guarantee with insurance - if you are the cause of the failure of the equipment neither the manufacturer warranty nor consumer guarantee will apply.The new legislation is great for consumers where it is a genuine fault, much longer coverage, costs like freight to be borne by the supplier and greater recourse to replacement with new.
                This i understand is now the case, only issue i guess is how the decision is made between agreement on being caused by consumer and failure i guess is what is generally the difference of opinions...

                In any case i just thought when looking at the more expensive machines that it wouldve come with a longer written guarantee than having to resort to the consumer guarantee and small claims tribunal as in the end everyone loses including your customer satisfaction, i know i will never buy another Saeco and i flatly told the Saeco rep in HN the other day just what i thought of the last saeco i had when he pointed to their machines and i was interested in the Breville BES900...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

                  Originally posted by 376870666D666A6363606068646B050 link=1339543442/6#6 date=1339546599
                  Absolutely. As an example a Giotto Premium Plus goes into a local office. It comes back dead after 8 months. The solenoid is completely clagged with scale as it the fest of the filthy machine. Some numb nut decided to run it on mineral water.
                  Ouch! 

                  Okay i can understand where your coming from there. I was more thinking of home Prosumer/\/Consumer use than a commerical office scenario which is a completely different kettle of fish, no one owns the machine there except the company so no one gives a stuff, dont clean it, doesnt know the machine, so its not their money why would they give a rats if it stuffs up.

                  But as a consumer /\/ prosumer and used at home, and paying 2.5-3K for a machine im going to look after it, clean it, follow manufacturers recommendations.

                  I use an under sink filtration canister system, fill up the jug and then use it to fill my machine (which also has its own filter in it in the case of the current one) therefore imo a completely different angle from my view point.... Hence questioning on the warranty length..

                  As for home techs, you modify something that isnt in the manufacturers specifications to the machine itself or its internals of course your on your own, they are not certified /\/ nor trained to service the equipment. Bit like servicing your car and your not a qualified /\/ licenced mechanic by trade, then your warranty is null and void thats common sense.

                  Im talking about standard run of the mill, you buy the machine, you use it, you clean it, okay want to change the basket in the group handle to something deeper eg 20g VST basket to get a better /\/ stronger coffee, as this isnt altering the machine itself then warranty shouldnt be a problem after 12 months for genuine failure...

                  Im basically talking about what is classed imo non user serviceable parts in the machine its internals. Not adjusting the OPV cause its too high thats a service agents job not a home job unless it has a dial /\/ screw externally accessible that is deemed user adjustable which it wouldnt as turning up the pressure would imo cause a premature failure (but if the agent adjusted it and then it prematurely failed then its a case of warranty even if warranty has failed expired)

                  I can understand the both sides of the fence here... But still doesnt quite address why the consumer written warranty is too short imo for such an expensive machine in the first place.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

                    Huey wrote up above:
                    [QUOTE=657F6463746E73637F060 link=1339543442/5#5 date=1339546076].........
                    So your saying that due to poor hygene, cleaning of machine and general looking after 12 months is all i would expect a machine and its seller to stand behind it and say your on your own... Hmm doesnt sound good and lacks confidence in the product and its users.......quote]


                    hehehehehe.....I dont think so and this nice little twisting of "logic" is not going to get me to respond. As I stated earlier, this is a consumer biased topic....you can twist the logic all you like, but I dont think there will be any further supplier comments here.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

                      Originally posted by 534952554258455549300 link=1339543442/8#8 date=1339547063
                      But as a consumer /\/ prosumer and used at home, and paying 2.5-3K for a machine im going to look after it, clean it, follow manufacturers recommendations.
                      Heh- I hear that every day. Our experience is that is far from the case with many owners.

                      Originally posted by 534952554258455549300 link=1339543442/8#8 date=1339547063
                      I use an under sink filtration canister system..
                      Unless its a coffee specific system for your water quality, theres your first mistake- refer my earlier post. Now Ill go wash my hair!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

                        Originally posted by 144B53454E4549404043434B4748260 link=1339543442/10#10 date=1339547268
                        Unless its a coffee specific system for your water quality, theres your first mistake- refer my earlier post.
                        Okay, am i missing something, how does using an under sink filtration system make it worse than not using filtered water? Do the under sink systems contain calcium and other substances harmful to the machine than using straight tap water?

                        The Central Coast area i live in according to the last litmus test was Soft town water obviously treated with flouride and not sure if clorine is added as well (although i cant taste it).

                        So according to your post it would seem i am doing more damage using filtered water than just using straight tap water... Or is it no difference?

                        I just had a look at the filtration system and its canister.

                        Its an Everpure System from Water Filters Australia.

                        ***EDIT***

                        I think i just answered my own question

                        This is the model filter i use...

                        Everpure® filters DO NOT remove fluoride and essential minerals according to the website.

                        Therefore other than harmful contaminants such as cryptosporidium and giardia cysts, Chlorine, off-tastes and odours, asbestos, dirt and rust, i guess you could just use tap water... But logic dictates that using filtered water has got to be considerably better than none at all...

                        Of course regular cleaning maintenance is still required of course!

                        But coming back to my original question all i have heard /\/ read is excuses of poor maintenance /\/ hygene, it still doesnt explain only 12 mths warranty compared to machine cost.

                        Which is a shame really, considering other brands albeit chinese have longer warranties and i guess can instil some confidence that manufacture is standing behind the product, of course for the cost is 1/3 as in the Breville BES900 i have just purchased, it does do a nice coffee imo after a couple of slight changes, that is 18g basket and heavier tamper than the stock one but that just personal preference.

                        For 3K machine i would expect to blown away by quality, coffee it expresses over what the breville could do eg why an E61 machine with HX boiler is better than the breville quality, and last of all which is an important feature to me, warranty!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

                          Warranty lengths and terms are not just based on a manufacturers confidence in a product but also on what the "competition" are doing. Brevilles decision to offer you 2 years is either based on 1) wanting to "out do" the competition or 2) the confidence Breville has in the product you bought or lastly (and I suspect) 3) a combination of both 1) and 2).

                          No company manufacturer will increase the term of a warranty because they are expecting problems due to cost cutting, the same as no retailer will continue to sell a product that continuously causes them and their customers grief.

                          Regardless of product, wether its a vaccuum cleaner, a lawn mower, a coffee machine etc I agree that most product failures are due to the appliance being mis-used or abused by the end-user.

                          I have never and will never buy an extended warranty. In previous jobs I was asked to on-sell them and refused to do that too. Not all but most of these are not worth the paper they are written on.

                          To the OP: Everything is built to a price - everything. Work out your max budget, the list of features you want and who you will feel confident dealing with - these are all more important than the exact term of warranty a product comes with.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

                            Originally posted by 4C7472626D6472010 link=1339543442/12#12 date=1339549635
                            Warranty lengths and terms are not just based on a manufacturers confidence in a product but also on what the "competition" are doing. Brevilles decision to offer you 2 years is either based on 1) wanting to "out do" the competition or 2) the confidence Breville has in the product you bought or lastly (and I suspect) 3) a combination of both 1) and 2).
                            This i think youve hit the nail on the head so to speak...

                            Originally posted by 4C7472626D6472010 link=1339543442/12#12 date=1339549635
                            I have never and will never buy an extended warranty. In previous jobs I was asked to on-sell them and refused to do that too. Not all but most of these are not worth the paper they are written on.
                            Whilst i one of those ppl that used to buy extended warranties where as ACCC /\/ Fair Trading are saying you dont need to, its the arguments you get into for warranty coverage is what causes stress. Having said that, i declined the HN extended warranty for both the BES900 and BCG800, as i considered the cost and life expectancy to be 2 - 3 years at least.

                            As for the paper that its written on, the Saeco i had for 5 years Domanye did repair the machine under extended warranty every time i took it back with a fault, what i didnt get was a replacement under warranty when the same faults or different faults kept occuring with the machine in other words i expected the machine not to have 3 faults a year and be out of action for 6 weeks at a time for each fault whilst it got sent away to be assessed and repaired and returned.

                            I guess the local onsite service option is the more preferential problem, and in the end if paying 3K for a machine ill pay the extended warranty (although i shouldnt have to!) to cover myself without STRESS of getting it repaired with the repairer under the warranty.

                            Perhaps premium manfacturers need to up their warranty periods befitting of the quality of their machines as a peace of mind.....

                            Muscles, i am looking at the next purchase max budget to me is a moot point if im planning it for 3 years time im going to save up for one of these babies and keep reading CS forums to ascertain which brand is one better than the other, warranty is one key aspect imo that is important to me as well as quality for that price point.

                            Whilst over the weekend i settled for the BES900/\/BCG800 combo as a price point of budget befitting this month as ive been out of work for 3 1/3 months due to redundancy and about to start a new job in a couple of weeks, i wouldve loved to spend 3x as much for quality but circumstances dictated otherwise.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

                              I think that Breville have given their two year warrantee not only because that they are confident that the machine will last but because buyers are reluctant to get a totally new machine that is untested on our kitchen benches.

                              I have been caught by buying a new untested car model that turned out to be a lemon at my cost.

                              I stuck my neck out this time by being an early adopter of the Breville Dual Boiler. So far I am not disappointed.

                              Barry.

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