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ADVICE PLEASE - ECM Rocket Giotto

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  • ADVICE PLEASE - ECM Rocket Giotto

    Hi folks. I'm a total newb that's been a long time lurker on these forums. I own a Sunbeam EM6910 and have been pondering upgrading for the last year or so. I have long coveted the Giotto machines. I've been pondering buying a secondhand one and have seen a few sell on ebay for reasonable prices.

    I've spent countless hours reading posts here including a bunch of posts about repairs and maintenance to these machines. I'm trying to approach buying a machine with my eyes wide open. I'm wondering a few things:

    1. Is buying secondhand for a complete novice at these machines a wise idea? What is the likelihood I'm buying myself a bunch of maintenance headaches? Are there things I should be looking out for?
    2. I read a lot about technique around these machines as well as the amount of time to pull the first coffee. I make one coffee each morning weekdays and 2-3 each day on weekends. Is it even worth my bother with this type of machine for that amount of coffee time? People talk of how great these machines are at making a lot of consecutive coffees. That's not me. That happens once every 3 months when we have some visitors that might like a coffee. Do these things take a lot of prep and cleanup after each coffee making session? It sounds like they might.
    3. I read about the vibration/rotary pumps. What difference does it make?
    4. I've seen a few of the older ECM Giotto machines sell fairly cheaply. Aside from age, are the newer machines much better?

    Overall, I'm trying to justify to myself that I'll get the most out of owning a machine like this given the fact that I only make a coffee or two a day.

    I love the idea of having one of these on my counter at home but I can't bring myself to do it for that reason alone.

    Any help/guidance would be appreciated.

  • #2
    I recently picked up a used rocket Giotto At a cheap price and comparing it to a Silvia I had before it is alot easier to make a good cup of espresso. The steps required for my preparation is also alot easier to make a few milk base drinks compare to a single boiler machine.

    As to comparison of a good cup between a Silvia and a Giotto? I can't tell the difference to be honest. But I do enjoy the process of making them with both machines.

    As to getting it used, I've been lucky to have used machines that are in good condition. But if you are unsure, probably would suggest that you get it serviced by a professional. It all depends on how the previous owners have looked after them.

    Regular cleaning is pretty easy. Back flush after every few days if you make low volume of coffee, with chemical clean every so often. And if you need to descale the machine every 6-12 months when needed. (Or get the pro to do it for you if unsure)

    There is a youtube video explaining the difference between a vibratory and a rotary pump and it looks like both are about the same in terms of home usage but rotary is needed if you are going to plumb your machine direct to your water main. Can't say I know the pros and cons of either though.

    There are other options to look at if you think it is an overkill for your need, but if you like it and can affort one then why not?

    But you should also consider getting a good grinder too if you don't have one right now. It does make a difference.

    Comment


    • #3
      Like an artist mixing his paints and preparing his canvas, they are not chores when the final creation is enjoyed. Bought (stole really) a 2008 SH
      Domus Galatea from a reputabe dealer with the statutory recent service/seals done by them, I only have praise for the machine which I pondered on for decades really. My experience - abslutely no regrets. My creations sometimes hit the mark, others seem like fails (new beans etc, dialling in blah), but theyre not really, just another chance to mix things up a bit and create again... most enjoyable part even? 2 x large flats everyday early AM, 2 x single shot machs in the arvo.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi bigrizz and welcome to CS,

        Like any other pre-loved machine, there are good ones and bad ones. It all comes down to what sort of "life" they have had.

        There are plenty of indicators of abuse and I'd suggest that it may be worth seeing if the vendor would drop it off to a good tech for a pre purchase inspection (at your expense of course). This would allow both parties to enter into the transaction with complete information. Some of the "just driven to church on Sundays" machines I have seen are more like junkers. Others are absolute bargains!

        Good luck with your purchase...

        Chris

        Comment


        • #5
          If I was in your situation, I would not be able to justify an upgrade - the EM6910 is perfectly capable of delivering great coffee. And it does warm up quickly, which sounds like it may be important to you.

          Prep & cleanup of a Giotto is no different to a 6910 really, but you do need to allow 30 mins for it to warm up.

          You don't mention what grinder you have - if its a cheapy, maybe you can satisfy your urge to spend with an upgrade to a better grinder.

          Stick with the 6910 & work on your technique!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by bigrizz View Post
            Hi folks. I'm a total newb that's been a long time lurker on these forums. I own a Sunbeam EM6910 and have been pondering upgrading for the last year or so. I have long coveted the Giotto machines. I've been pondering buying a secondhand one and have seen a few sell on ebay for reasonable prices.

            I've spent countless hours reading posts here including a bunch of posts about repairs and maintenance to these machines. I'm trying to approach buying a machine with my eyes wide open. I'm wondering a few things:

            1. Is buying secondhand for a complete novice at these machines a wise idea? What is the likelihood I'm buying myself a bunch of maintenance headaches? Are there things I should be looking out for?
            2. I read a lot about technique around these machines as well as the amount of time to pull the first coffee. I make one coffee each morning weekdays and 2-3 each day on weekends. Is it even worth my bother with this type of machine for that amount of coffee time? People talk of how great these machines are at making a lot of consecutive coffees. That's not me. That happens once every 3 months when we have some visitors that might like a coffee. Do these things take a lot of prep and cleanup after each coffee making session? It sounds like they might.
            3. I read about the vibration/rotary pumps. What difference does it make?
            4. I've seen a few of the older ECM Giotto machines sell fairly cheaply. Aside from age, are the newer machines much better?

            Overall, I'm trying to justify to myself that I'll get the most out of owning a machine like this given the fact that I only make a coffee or two a day.

            I love the idea of having one of these on my counter at home but I can't bring myself to do it for that reason alone.

            Any help/guidance would be appreciated.
            If you are pondering to get one, I would say get it. Until you get what you want you'll keep thinking about it and would never be satisfy with the current machine. As for sunbeam 6910 I can't comment on the quality of the machine and the quality for extraction but I had a breville 860 with the in built grinder. After 3 years I've upgraded to the Expobar Minore 3. Interms of the coffee extraction, it was better and I can play with the settings of my grinder compared to breville 860.

            1.Buying second hand is like buying a car sometimes you get good deals and sometimes you get bad ones. you have to inspect it on each machine individually. I bought a second hand one simply because I can't justify the difference in cost as it was about $1k difference for new vs old. Plus the machine that I bought seem to have a good life as it was well taken care of and it look brand new oppose some that looks beat up for the same age of machine that I inspected prior to buying my current machine. At the end of the day it's whats important to you. If money wasn't an issue then go for the new machine rather than use. there is no substitute of the feeling of opening a brand new toy knowing that nobody has touch or use it before.
            2. I used to do about 1 cuppa a day with the breville but I enjoy too much of making coffee on the expobar that I have increase my daily consumption to 3 cuppa a day. LOL So only you can judge whether it's worth the upgrade. To me it was.
            3.Vibration vs rotary, as for home use vibration is more than enough. Unless you need the machine to be almost silent when it extract coffee other than that it's just cost more for rotary pump plus it's bragging factor(Sort of?).
            4. As I stated in 1. As long as the machine is cared for and have regular service then the machine is as good as new. Like buying a 2-3 year car vs buying new sometimes new can be a lemon too.

            Ps: I initially wanted a rocket giotto but ended up with Expobar minore III as it was a better buy for me.
            Hope this helps.

            Comment


            • #7
              I did have a Sunbeam 6910 Inc. matching grinder, which was a great set-up for learning and developing my technique, however like yourself I pondered an upgrade and got myself a Giotto. I prefer the commercial style build and use of standard boiler fittings and components for good serviceability, longevity and duty.

              Agree with 'Toad' that prep and clean-up is no different, if anything, I find it a little easier, because of the way it is built. Time wise in warming-up, I found once I turned on the Sunbeam and finally got around to making a coffee, 30 or so minutes had passed so no change in my routine with the Giotto.

              Definitely agree with 'Chris' in regards to engaging someone (techie) who knows what to look out for I.e. pressure/leak test, temp stability etc... in reviewing the machine for you, specially if the history of use is not clearly known.

              Good luck with your choice bigrizz

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks guys. All great advice. Really helpful. I'm glad I posted.

                @Toad - I didn't realise it takes 30 mins for the Giotto to warm up. That seems crazy. So much for spontaneous coffees. By the way, I own the Sunbeam EM0480 grinder. It's ok but is not without its flaws. For one, it collects a whole lot of grinds in the compartment beneath the burrs, which is only accessible with a screwdriver and is fiddly to reassemble. So after a week, the grinds are contaminated with stale coffee.

                I'm going to ponder some more and as is often the case, my heart and brain are at loggerheads on this one. I floated the idea with my wife and explained the rationale of paying more for a secondhand Giotto than I can buy a new Sunbeam/Breville as the difference between buying a new top end Commodore vs a classic Ferrari. She still didn't get it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  do you warm up your current 6910 before making a cup of coffee? I find that my shots are always flat and sour if I dont warm up the machine long enough...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by okitoki View Post
                    do you warm up your current 6910 before making a cup of coffee? I find that my shots are always flat and sour if I dont warm up the machine long enough...
                    I wait for the lights to come on and away I go. To be honest, I assumed that that was the machine telling me it was warm enough. So how long do you wait for it to warm up? What tells you it is warm enough? Or is it more of an art than a science? I've seen mention of people using thermometers to tell them how warm the machine is. That's an unfamiliar world to me. It may be a part of my journey to making better coffee as I read more. You guys are a great starting point so far!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bigrizz View Post
                      I floated the idea with my wife and explained the rationale of paying more for a secondhand Giotto than I can buy a new Sunbeam/Breville as the difference between buying a new top end Commodore vs a classic Ferrari. She still didn't get it.
                      All pretty easy I reckon.. One's more likely to be a junker or at the tip after five years.....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The light going off is just telling you the boiler has reached the correct temperature, but that doesnt mean the rest of the machine is up to temp yet... if you can imagine your hot water system to your shower head which takes a while for the shower water to turn from the initial cold water to hot water (not a direct analogy, but you get the idea) so if you start pulling a shot while most of the machine is not warmed up yet, then the cooler part of the water path may cool down the water so when it gets to the grind it may not be optimal range... also should warm up the PF holder too
                        With the Giotto, there are more metal to warm up, but it also provide better temp stability.. .so it does take a little longer to warm up... I use a timer for my Giotto to turn on at 6:45am when I get up, and by the time Im ready to make my coffee at 7:30, it is just right... I tried 10min warm up before, and the shot came out ink black with no crema and tasted a yucky sour... like Nescaffe Gold but once I left it longer, with the same beans and dosing, it came out nice I do flush hot water through the group head to speed up the process a little if Im in a rush... nothing specific... just guestimation when it is ready

                        Recently a fellow CSer also seemed to have benefited by leaving his machine to warm up longer before pulling a shot
                        http://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-co...tml#post511317

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                          All pretty easy I reckon.. One's more likely to be a junker or at the tip after five years.....
                          lol... with the state of the car industries in Australia, they may become collectables in 50 years time
                          plus, atleast we are not talking about a Daewoooohoo....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bigrizz View Post
                            I wait for the lights to come on and away I go. To be honest, I assumed that that was the machine telling me it was warm enough. So how long do you wait for it to warm up? What tells you it is warm enough? Or is it more of an art than a science? I've seen mention of people using thermometers to tell them how warm the machine is. That's an unfamiliar world to me. It may be a part of my journey to making better coffee as I read more. You guys are a great starting point so far!
                            I find the coffee is better if the group head and handle/basket are up to a good temperature. On my machine (Expobar Minore II), it takes around 20-30 minutes to get to the point where I feel it is warm enough. I also leave the empty (clean) group handle lightly locked in position for warmup.
                            I don't think you need to be concerned with thermometers for measuring your machine temp. You might get more interested in things like grouphead temp and/or scace devices in the future but for now, start simple.
                            Try a coffee made on your machine after a quick warmup and then try one after a good 30+ minute warmup and see if you taste any difference.
                            Enjoy the ride.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by fatboy_1999 View Post
                              Try a coffee made on your machine after a quick warmup and then try one after a good 30+ minute warmup and see if you taste any difference.
                              Enjoy the ride.
                              Thanks mate. I'll give that a try and report back. That's a good weekend project. Any project that involves drinking more coffee has my unequivocal support!

                              Comment

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