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ADVICE PLEASE - ECM Rocket Giotto

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  • Robbks
    replied
    On my machine, definitely a Cessna
    While the pumps themselves still make the same noise, it's just not reverberated through the whole chassis.

    take an empty tin can and tap it with a spoon.
    Then hit a full can with the same spoon.
    it still makes a nose (the energy you have transferred into it from the spoon) but it doesn't resonate

    here's a different product used and his focuses more on actually containing the sound within the casing, but it also stops the resonance

    http://youtu.be/rlZvSj98UkU?t=3m58s

    Here's a video from Jetblack of the Lelit PL60 (previous version)
    And you can hear that metallic vibration
    http://youtu.be/MOqK0KqVM9M?t=38s

    I'll grab one of my macchine tonight and upload as comparison

    Leave a comment:


  • bigrizz
    replied
    Aha, ok. I'd have assumed to cover the panels entirely. Thanks for the heads up. I see what you mean about needing bugger all material. So you noticed an appreciable improvement in quiteness, I'm guessing? If it was a jumbo jet originally, what level of noise is there now?

    The other source of vibration noise is that I've got capuccino cups sitting on top of the machine that rattle like hell. I've got some plastic mesh I used for our dehydrator. I'm thinking of shaping a piece to sit under the cups for a little vibration control. I'm mindful not to block the holes on top of the cup warmer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbks
    replied
    Originally posted by bigrizz View Post
    Good tips, mate. Thanks. I'll investigate the Jaycar sound deadening option. There's plenty of room inside my machine to accommodate sound deadening. I didn't really ponder that as an option.
    My advice with the stuff is this. (I've always used it in my cars to lower/ absorb road noise and dampen vibrations from audio systems)

    -you don't need to completely cover the panel you're working on, even a single piece 1/5 the size of teh panel or smaller in the centre of that panel, or cut in half again and placed at thirds across the panel is sufficient to add the weight and cancel the vibrations
    -don;t put it too close to the boilers, or directly above them. you can end up reflecting heat back into the machine, which is good for boiler temps but you don;t want to over-heat control boards
    -this stuff has a "working" temp up to 110'c so over that there's the possibility of the adhesive melting and then the material slipping or falling off the panel.

    here's a the stuff I have always used, it's only a few mm thick
    Butyl Based Sound Deadening Material - Jaycar Electronics
    and some installed pics in this thread
    See how i've left it a little way away from the boiler

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-eq...tml#post539872

    Leave a comment:


  • ibiza888
    replied
    Originally posted by bigrizz View Post
    Pros
    4. It cost a quarter of the price of a new machine. It'll take many more repairs for it to make up the difference in cost of a new one.
    CONS
    1. It's already had two repairs and only time will tell if it will require many more.

    In conclusion, would I do it again? The answer is an unequivocal YES. Of course, if the machine blows up in a month's time, I reserve the right to change my mind. As a long term case study, I'll check in from time to time and update you all on any issues that I might have.
    Yes, PROs & CONs are all looks contradict. When I decided to go for a HX, I grabbed a new V3PID from CS sponsor and save the time & hassle, just enjoy the coffee! I need time to get more $$$

    Leave a comment:


  • bigrizz
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbks View Post
    For "spontaneous" coffee, I can drastically speed up the heating of my machine (Lelit Dual Boiler)
    by waiting until the boiler first reaches the set temp (about 3 minutes), then flushing a good 150ml or so through the group, with PF attached and into my cups.
    The Lelit only has small boilers (around 300ml) so this has the effect of half draining the boiler of hot water and keeping the heating element on flat out for twice as long to really get heat into the group fast.
    it really only needs another 4-5 minutes at this point to have the machine at full operational/ stable temp.
    I've tested this with my brew temp thermometer and the test data matches up with the machine operation after being on for hours.

    I'm also in the habit of turning the machine on and leaving it on whenever I'm home.
    I do switch off the steam boiler though, it's super-fast to generate the pressure required anyway.

    I would invest in some sound deadening material (butyl based with aluminium backing, self adhesive) to attach to the interior panels
    Doing so has greatly reduced the resonance of the vibe pumps through the casing in my machine.
    one roll from Jaycar at $30 is almost twice as much as I needed.
    Good tips, mate. Thanks. I'll investigate the Jaycar sound deadening option. There's plenty of room inside my machine to accommodate sound deadening. I didn't really ponder that as an option.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbks
    replied
    For "spontaneous" coffee, I can drastically speed up the heating of my machine (Lelit Dual Boiler)
    by waiting until the boiler first reaches the set temp (about 3 minutes), then flushing a good 150ml or so through the group, with PF attached and into my cups.
    The Lelit only has small boilers (around 300ml) so this has the effect of half draining the boiler of hot water and keeping the heating element on flat out for twice as long to really get heat into the group fast.
    it really only needs another 4-5 minutes at this point to have the machine at full operational/ stable temp.
    I've tested this with my brew temp thermometer and the test data matches up with the machine operation after being on for hours.

    I'm also in the habit of turning the machine on and leaving it on whenever I'm home.
    I do switch off the steam boiler though, it's super-fast to generate the pressure required anyway.

    I would invest in some sound deadening material (butyl based with aluminium backing, self adhesive) to attach to the interior panels
    Doing so has greatly reduced the resonance of the vibe pumps through the casing in my machine.
    one roll from Jaycar at $30 is almost twice as much as I needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigrizz
    replied
    Sorry mate. I was expecting a notification via email (option is enabled) of any new posts to the thread but never got one, so missed your post. The SPAM filter might have swallowed it.

    Yes, it's got a vibe pump. I have no idea whether a rotary pump is a drop-in replacement or a major PITA project. Anyone else know? Other than noise, is it really worth the effort? Maybe it's a job to do if the pump ever dies. I was under the impression that all plumbed machines had rotary pumps prior to buying this machine. Obviously not. I think I formed that view from reading various threads and posts from across the web. I understand that rotary pumps deliver a more consistent water pressure profile during extraction but I have no idea if the plumbing of the machine has any bearing on the performance of the pump.

    As far as the WAF is concerned, I don't think her pallet is discerning enough for her to accept the additional expense buying a new machine. She was perfectly happy with the coffee I was churning out with the Sunbeam. Although I think she appreciates that my passion for coffee has reached new levels. That and the fact that it gives her something to give me stick about at dinner parties!

    Leave a comment:


  • flynnaus
    replied
    Originally posted by bigrizz View Post
    5. I love that it's plumbed. No water refilling is a dream. I'm not sure I can ever go back to a tank model.
    It's noisy on start up? It must still have the vibe pump. As it is plumbed in, could you have a rotary pump installed instead?

    I hope your wife is appreciating your step up in the world of better coffee making. That's what I keep saying to my wife when I splurge on my hobby: "but you are enjoying the benefits too!".

    Leave a comment:


  • bigrizz
    replied
    As an epitaph to this story, I actually did end up buying a second hand ECM Giotto from a dealer that had given it a service before I bought it. That gave me some confidence that it was at least operating reasonably after I walked out with it. It's a plumbed model that was a custom build for its time. It's great to have a plumbed machine. No refilling of water, which is awesome.

    So I got the machine in early January (actually, it was a combined Christmas and anniversary present from my wife as guided by me - she's a keeper). I also bought a Compak K2 Push grinder to upgrade from the Sunbeam EM0480. The Giotto worked swimmingly until the end of April when threw a heating element. Three weeks later, the pressurestat packed it in. The repairer assured me the two were unrelated and it was just bad luck. All up, the repairs cost about $250. All has been fine since. Here's my brief analysis of the pros and cons of my experience.

    Pros
    1. I love the machine and it's a talking point for visitors. It really is a beautiful thing to behold. I do like shiny things.
    2. It reinvigorated my passion for making coffee. It made me re-learn all parts of the process. Grinding, tamping, extracting and frothing milk all suddenly required me to be much more attentive to the process and made me taste my coffee more critically. I think I got lazy after owning my Sunbeam for quite a few years and my coffee drifted into mediocrity.
    3. The quality of the extraction is superb. How much of that has to do with my being more attentive to the process is hard to gauge but I'm pulling some cracker coffees with it.
    4. It cost a quarter of the price of a new machine. It'll take many more repairs for it to make up the difference in cost of a new one.
    5. I love that it's plumbed. No water refilling is a dream. I'm not sure I can ever go back to a tank model.

    CONS
    1. It's already had two repairs and only time will tell if it will require many more.
    2. It takes me more time to make my coffee. It needs longer to warm up than my old Sunbeam and is a little more difficult to clean up. This one's marginal as I've got my process down pretty well now. Having said that, as of two weeks ago, I hooked the machine up to a Belkin WeMo and I've got it starting automatically 10 minutes before my alarm goes off.
    3. The machine and grinder are big. They take up more real estate on the bench than my Sunbeam combo. Makes it a little tricky as we have limited bench space.
    4. The machine is noisy on startup. I'm not sure I even need an alarm clock as the machine wakes me before the alarm goes.

    In conclusion, would I do it again? The answer is an unequivocal YES. Of course, if the machine blows up in a month's time, I reserve the right to change my mind. As a long term case study, I'll check in from time to time and update you all on any issues that I might have.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigrizz
    replied
    Originally posted by fatboy_1999 View Post
    Try a coffee made on your machine after a quick warmup and then try one after a good 30+ minute warmup and see if you taste any difference.
    Enjoy the ride.
    Thanks mate. I'll give that a try and report back. That's a good weekend project. Any project that involves drinking more coffee has my unequivocal support!

    Leave a comment:


  • fatboy_1999
    replied
    Originally posted by bigrizz View Post
    I wait for the lights to come on and away I go. To be honest, I assumed that that was the machine telling me it was warm enough. So how long do you wait for it to warm up? What tells you it is warm enough? Or is it more of an art than a science? I've seen mention of people using thermometers to tell them how warm the machine is. That's an unfamiliar world to me. It may be a part of my journey to making better coffee as I read more. You guys are a great starting point so far!
    I find the coffee is better if the group head and handle/basket are up to a good temperature. On my machine (Expobar Minore II), it takes around 20-30 minutes to get to the point where I feel it is warm enough. I also leave the empty (clean) group handle lightly locked in position for warmup.
    I don't think you need to be concerned with thermometers for measuring your machine temp. You might get more interested in things like grouphead temp and/or scace devices in the future but for now, start simple.
    Try a coffee made on your machine after a quick warmup and then try one after a good 30+ minute warmup and see if you taste any difference.
    Enjoy the ride.

    Leave a comment:


  • okitoki
    replied
    Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    All pretty easy I reckon.. One's more likely to be a junker or at the tip after five years.....
    lol... with the state of the car industries in Australia, they may become collectables in 50 years time
    plus, atleast we are not talking about a Daewoooohoo....

    Leave a comment:


  • okitoki
    replied
    The light going off is just telling you the boiler has reached the correct temperature, but that doesnt mean the rest of the machine is up to temp yet... if you can imagine your hot water system to your shower head which takes a while for the shower water to turn from the initial cold water to hot water (not a direct analogy, but you get the idea) so if you start pulling a shot while most of the machine is not warmed up yet, then the cooler part of the water path may cool down the water so when it gets to the grind it may not be optimal range... also should warm up the PF holder too
    With the Giotto, there are more metal to warm up, but it also provide better temp stability.. .so it does take a little longer to warm up... I use a timer for my Giotto to turn on at 6:45am when I get up, and by the time Im ready to make my coffee at 7:30, it is just right... I tried 10min warm up before, and the shot came out ink black with no crema and tasted a yucky sour... like Nescaffe Gold but once I left it longer, with the same beans and dosing, it came out nice I do flush hot water through the group head to speed up the process a little if Im in a rush... nothing specific... just guestimation when it is ready

    Recently a fellow CSer also seemed to have benefited by leaving his machine to warm up longer before pulling a shot
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-co...tml#post511317

    Leave a comment:


  • TC
    replied
    Originally posted by bigrizz View Post
    I floated the idea with my wife and explained the rationale of paying more for a secondhand Giotto than I can buy a new Sunbeam/Breville as the difference between buying a new top end Commodore vs a classic Ferrari. She still didn't get it.
    All pretty easy I reckon.. One's more likely to be a junker or at the tip after five years.....

    Leave a comment:


  • bigrizz
    replied
    Originally posted by okitoki View Post
    do you warm up your current 6910 before making a cup of coffee? I find that my shots are always flat and sour if I dont warm up the machine long enough...
    I wait for the lights to come on and away I go. To be honest, I assumed that that was the machine telling me it was warm enough. So how long do you wait for it to warm up? What tells you it is warm enough? Or is it more of an art than a science? I've seen mention of people using thermometers to tell them how warm the machine is. That's an unfamiliar world to me. It may be a part of my journey to making better coffee as I read more. You guys are a great starting point so far!

    Leave a comment:

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