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Advice wanted - balancing quality, "walk-up shots" and reliability, on a $2000(ish) b

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  • #16
    An HX will be a good fit for OP then but quite a big leap from coffee from a capsule.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
      No. Not even for the first shot of the day. Not with a well configured machine.
      Can you help us understand what is meant by "well configured machine?" Is it something that the user has to do, or does it relegate the buyer to simply machine A, B and C (which is actually more 'well-designed' than 'well-configured').

      The reason I ask is that it's not hard to observe HXs spitting hot water all over the place when you flush, and then they cool, so we know this phenomenon exists. We also know that some good commercial HX machines are really stable and admittedly don't require much cooling flush. We also know that there can be differences between first shot, second shot and repeated shots. I'm no expert on this; I've only read and seen videos about these things, but there is no shortage of information, and there is much agreement. Just trying to learn.

      Regardless of any learning curve for flush or not, an HX is probably a fine choice for the OP; much more so than a single boiler.

      Thanks.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by OttoMatic View Post
        Can you help us understand what is meant by "well configured machine?" Is it something that the user has to do, or does it relegate the buyer to simply machine A, B and C (which is actually more 'well-designed' than 'well-configured').
        It's not really anything to do with the user, you start with a machine that has a well designed HX loop to begin with, and then you can make various tweaks to the HX loop to ensure it produces a sensible and stable temperature.

        It's necessary to make the distinction between "well-designed" and "well-configured" because machines of differing specs are delivered to differing markets, i.e. the Vibiemme Junior you buy here (AU spec) will be different to the same machine bought in Europe, the importers work with the producers to produce a machine appropriate to the local market.

        The AU spec of the Vibiemme Junior certainly doesn't require a cooling flush, testament to this is the one which sits on my bench and is running more or less 24/7.

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        • #19
          AU spec different from EU or UK specs? A different US spec is understandable due to V and Hz difference. Is it a difference in HX loop design? Will a Vibiemme Junior bought with AU spec work the same way in Jakarta or Hong Kong?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mjoyce View Post
            My budget seems to be creeping up a little... I started out looking at a Baratzo Preciso, but am now leaning towards a Compak K3 grinder.
            Budget creep is good, so long as you can afford it. Many will say that the Preciso isn't up to snuff for espresso, and that the Vario is a better choice. K3 is also a better choice. I know the grinder isn't as sexy as the espresso machine itself, but I've found, in my limited experience, that the grinder is key. The only two grinders I've owned are the Mazzer Mini-E and the Mahlkoenig K30 Vario, but there was quite a difference in fiddling around to get consistent shots.

            For successful walk up shots, you need a consistent dose and grind. Grind can change from day to day due to different beans, aging beans, temp, humidity, etc. I have to tweak my grinder here and there (mostly for a change in beans, and a little over time as they age). A grinder that's easy to tweak is very nice to have. I frequently measure the mass of my grinds to stick around 22.0g, and having a grinder that hits close to your target weight can be key. I don't know what the K3 can do, though I do see that its timer calibration is on the bottom, which might be annoying if you want to change your grind time (which I do somewhat frequently). My wife can pull beautiful shots all day long without worrying about any of the above, which tells me that my set up of it is good enough, and the K30's consistency is good enough.

            Another thing that's really helped us along with ease of use and walk up shots is plumbing. If you can, do it! Plumb water to the machine, and plumb the waste line out to a drain. It seems like a simple, stupid luxury, but my wife and I laugh when we think about filling water tanks. It just makes everything a little bit easier.

            I started out a couple years ago with a US$1K budget for a machine, thinking I'd get by with my Capresso Infinity grinder. It wasn't 2 months later and I'd gotten rid of the stuff I started with and re-budgeted to around almost $4K or something. I didn't really mean to, but I got sucked in. I couldn't be happier, though, and haven't had any need or desire to upgrade further since.

            Originally posted by mjoyce View Post
            In order to get the consistency right, it looks like I have two options - focus on a machine with a PID, or else get one with a superior group like the E61.
            PID will help keep temp stable. The E61 group itself isn't necessarily superior, and it doesn't necessarily help with consistency. The things you're talking about here are focused on temperature, as is the discussion above about HX flushing. Whether you do an HX flush, have PID'd DB, etc, I believe you can figure out how to maintain relatively stable temperatures. The pump, of course, will deliver the pressure, so that should also be consistent. But to get beautiful pulls, no spurts and sprites, even distribution in the basket, accurate dosing, and consistent espresso therefrom, it's really more about the grind, and you should continue to focus on the grinder as the key to consistency.

            All my opinion, of course. Good luck!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by jbrewster View Post
              It's not really anything to do with the user, you start with a machine that has a well designed HX loop to begin with, and then you can make various tweaks to the HX loop to ensure it produces a sensible and stable temperature.
              Are these tweaks something that the typical end user would do, or is it more for advanced users and tinkerers? Or is it something that would be done by the factory?

              Originally posted by jbrewster View Post
              It's necessary to make the distinction between "well-designed" and "well-configured" because machines of differing specs are delivered to differing markets, i.e. the Vibiemme Junior you buy here (AU spec) will be different to the same machine bought in Europe, the importers work with the producers to produce a machine appropriate to the local market.
              I'm ignorant of market differences; help me understand what type of temperature differences or HX performance that an AU/EU/US/etc. user would want or expect from a given machine (note: I'm US based)

              Originally posted by jbrewster View Post
              The AU spec of the Vibiemme Junior certainly doesn't require a cooling flush, testament to this is the one which sits on my bench and is running more or less 24/7.
              I don't doubt that, but have you measured it?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by JojoS View Post
                AU spec different from EU or UK specs? A different US spec is understandable due to V and Hz difference. Is it a difference in HX loop design? Will a Vibiemme Junior bought with AU spec work the same way in Jakarta or Hong Kong?
                In this context we're talking more about the design and construction of the HX loop, internal plumbing and so on. The importers will start from the "standard" spec, test it and determine if there's any modifications required to fit the market (be they for electrical compliance or machine performance), it's not uncommon for them to go through several iterations before settling on the final "AU spec". There's threads around here which talk to some degree about the various iterations of various machines being bought to market here.

                On the electrical front, so long as the power in your target location is 230V AC, then it'll behave exactly like it would here.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by OttoMatic View Post
                  Are these tweaks something that the typical end user would do, or is it more for advanced users and tinkerers? Or is it something that would be done by the factory?
                  Generally these are modifications to the base design which are worked out between the factory and the importer, after the final "AU spec" is determined all machines will be imported in that configuration.

                  That said, it mostly boils down to plumbing so in theory anybody could do it, but without the many years experience behind them that the importers have the results would likely be a bit of a "roll of the dice".

                  Originally posted by OttoMatic View Post
                  I'm ignorant of market differences; help me understand what type of temperature differences or HX performance that an AU/EU/US/etc. user would want or expect from a given machine (note: I'm US based)
                  Ah, US based, that'd explain why you expect HX machines to require cooling flushes (as an outsider looking in (and probably based pretty much entirely on stuff read on HB) it appears that this type of thing is much more common in the US.)

                  The differences in markets boil down to the coffee preferences of the target market, machines in Europe (and I believe the US) tend to be run hotter, because European coffee tends to be heavy on Robusta which responds better to higher heat than the primarily Arabica coffee we drink over here.

                  Originally posted by OttoMatic View Post
                  I don't doubt that, but have you measured it?
                  Not personally, but I know that it got Scaced by the importer and again by Chris before it got sold to me

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                  • #24
                    After a huge amount of "desk research" I've bitten the bullet on a Vibiemme HX Junior and Macap M2M grinder from one of the very helpful site sponsors. I'll be picking them up next week and carting them back home in my checked baggage. Can't wait to get them home and start enjoying! I'm expecting a bit of a learning curve to get started - I realise that despite drinking espresso all my adult life, I've never actually pulled a shot!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mjoyce View Post
                      ....I've bitten the bullet on a Vibiemme HX Junior and Macap M2M grinder from one of the very helpful site sponsors. I'll be picking them up next week and carting them back home in my checked baggage. !
                      Wow !.. i hope you travel light,.. because that will be your baggage allowance taken care of !
                      Brave of you to entrust those shiny new toys to airline baggage handlers !
                      plenty of "Fragile" stickers i hope.

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                      • #26
                        Quick update: No problems bringing the unit to Jakarta. Total weight was about 26kg, including a 1kg of beans. And very nice to get GST refunded at Melbourne airport too. It's all plugged in, the coffees I made last night showed lots of promise, but I found it a bit harder to hit the mark this morning. Practice, practice, practice.

                        Oh, and the machine did trip the fuses in my apartment twice. Last night when the fuses tripped it was plugged into a Wemo wi-fi timer, I removed this and got through the morning without issue. There might be something else on the circuit also draining the current, so a little investigation and possibly upgrading of the apartment electrics might be needed.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mjoyce View Post
                          Quick update: No problems bringing the unit to Jakarta. Total weight was about 26kg, including a 1kg of beans. And very nice to get GST refunded at Melbourne airport too. It's all plugged in, the coffees I made last night showed lots of promise, but I found it a bit harder to hit the mark this morning. Practice, practice, practice.

                          Oh, and the machine did trip the fuses in my apartment twice. Last night when the fuses tripped it was plugged into a Wemo wi-fi timer, I removed this and got through the morning without issue. There might be something else on the circuit also draining the current, so a little investigation and possibly upgrading of the apartment electrics might be needed.
                          Hi mjoyce,

                          I'm glad it arrived intact. My bet? Your lovely luggage guys have tipped the machine onto its side at some point and there is some water from the boiler around the place. We did drain off the excess, but there would still have been some remaining. In all likelihood, this water will evaporate and things will settle down.

                          We bench tested your machine before collection and it was a very happy one. I trust that this will be a short term glitch.

                          Cheers

                          Chris

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                          • #28
                            Chris, I think your intuition is right. It's been working flawlessly since those two fuse trips, and hasn't tripped the fuses at all since then. Have got it dialled in pretty nicely but still have some practice to do. Getting a wonderful shot about 1 in 3, the others are good but not as good as they should be. And I wish I'd paid more attention to your milk demo!

                            But going back to my original requirements, I am very happy with my choice. I know I will get the consistency down pat very soon and will live the ritual of making the coffee as much as the coffee itself.

                            Thanks to all who helped me make my decision!

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                            • #29
                              As an added benefit to the "walk up shot", I bought a weather station as humidity has an effect on the grind I need. Here in Brisbane it can change from 90% down to 40% and back within the day, I imagine tropical Jakarta is worse.
                              Barista's making 100's of cups/day will adjust the grinder as they go, according to the last pour. I make 1 cup every 4 hours.

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                              • #30
                                As an update a month after having the machine... I'm super-happy with the purchase. I'm not fussed about the "walk-up shot" for the first shot of the morning. I usually have to adjust the grinder one or two times before I'm happy with the pour, but that's much simpler than I thought it would be. I took a one-day course which was great as it gave me the repetition of making probably 50 to 100 coffees in a day, getting a good consistent tamp. I don't bother weighing, since I feel I have a pretty consistent fill of the basket.
                                It's taken me a little longer to get my milk steaming right, but I think I'm finally getting the hang of it.

                                Thanks for all the help!

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