New Sunbeam Torino triple thermoblock

[Yelta]

They still sell kettles in department stores. Granted...I guess..they don't demonstrate them, but I'd also assume (hope) that any espresso machines set up for demo are done so in a controlled environment (i.e. in a dedicated space rather than wedged in between the Barbie dolls and selfie sticks).

Nice ladies often offer samples of hot food products in our local super markets, they usually heat em up in a small electric frying pan, those things will bite ya.

Most of us also use BBQ's from time to time, we quickly learn the hot plate/grill/lid in fact the whole device will burn ya, so we don't touch em.

Cant believe we are even discussing this.

[LeroyC]

I agree it's probably more likely to sell more of their lower priced models. Sit this for $2k next to their lower priced offerings and they seem like they are much better value. I think you are right that we will see a big price drop after the festive season.

I think anyone that is considering dropping $2k on a machine is going to do a bit of research first which will lead them to better machines so any the do sell at RRP will be seen as a major success

Yeah I don't think it was accidental that both the EM6910 and EM7000 were sitting next to the Torino on the HN shelf with 'discounted' price tags.

[Mondoh]

Thanks, ntsoftcoffee.

I can see you provided a fountain of information in your post and you echo my thoughts:
The Sunbeam more or less looks the part but is expensive (I was quoted about $1,600 unbundled) and doesn't perform as well as it trying to look.
I liked your comparison with the Breville twin boiler, which I have and you are right in saying it will be an uphill battle for the Sunbeam to compete with the Breville.
The Breville is a strong performer and a direct (better results) competitor to the Sunbeam in this category.
This category of machine is aimed at the average consumer who respond well in the likes of Myer and David Jones who provide discounts to entice people into buy machines that are in a different league to what most on here would use and want.

I also liked your comparison with ECM in which you clearly stated these are of a far superior build and something the Sunbeam was likely to have been modelled on.

Congrats on putting up an informative post.

Cheers,
Mondoh

[Yoshiboldor]

Tried it at HN today, first time I had seen it and was excited for a min as I was considering upgrading my old café series for a single group commercial unit . The Pre infusion feature is good, and it seems to have more pressure than my old Sunbeam, but steaming seems the same as previous EM700 and the group head is identical, in fact I put the Torino group head in a EM700 on the shelf and the were iterchangable.

For me the thermoblock steaming is the biggest issue with the EM700 and this is no different. I was hoping that it had a boiler for steaming. The grinder is the existing model with Torino on it. The manual handle just hits a microswitch, it doesn't open a valve like the machines it is copying.
I

[Jester]

I just happened to be at Hardly Normal today at Bondi Junction and just happened to see the new Sunbeam Torino. (I did'nt even know it existed) In any case, I will start by saying I am no expert on coffee machines. Having said that,even why my level of inexperience I also don't understand why you would go to that much trouble and not include a proper E61 Group Head. Also, why on such a machine that externally looks like a HX or double boiler machine would you use 3 thermoblocks??
Is'nt that like BMW bringing out a new car with a carburettor instead of fuel injection? Unfortunately the machine was not plugged in so I could not terrorise/defile it but the casing looked very cheap....not stainless steel I suspect.
It definitely does'nt look like a machine that's going to last very long. I'm really not even sure what Sunbeam were trying to do here. This machine scares me!!!!
Oh, I just looked at choice magazine's article. Guess what, it's made in China......Oh Goodie!!

[Gavisconi007]

There is one (yes one) review of the Torino on the Sunbeam website. If the review was written by the designer he could (maybe) be forgiven.

If it was written by anyone other than the designer they should be taken out the back paddock and shot.

Here it is, in all it's nauseating glory:

"Was looking at the German and Italian equivalents (Bezzera and ECM) and suddenly the Torino came on the market. What a find! Great build, Aussie design, auto or manual operation - draws a brilliant coffee. Best thing? Comes with belt-driven grinder (quiet), tamper, milk jug...the lot. Got a discount off RRP from the retailer too - impossible to resist. Like all good machines, takes practice and patience to get optimal coffee result, but well worth it. We love our Torino."

[TC]

If the review was written by the designer....."Got a discount off RRP from the retailer too"

I'm betting that the discounts on this one will eventually be greater than actual sell price...

I call it taking the pi$$....

[noidle22]

Stay tuned........

[noidle22]

So I have been using the machine today and here are my findings. I'll have a conclusion at the end if you don't want to read through the whole lot.
Most comparisons will be against the Sunbeam EM7000 as this machine is supposedly a level above it.

I may do a write up about the grinder but it's sort of pointless, it's a Sunbeam Precision EM0700 with Torino written on it.
Conical burrs, belt drive. Grinds well, fairly quiet, easy to use, plenty of adjustment. Not as a good as my K3.

*Appearance and quality*

First impressions are good, the machine is sturdy and heavy and also quite large. Net weight of around 22kg.
Fit and finish is excellent. The drip tray is deep and sits nicely on the base, upper cup tray and metal rods are nicely finished.
The stainless steel body panels seem to be good quality but time will tell on that one.
It will be a pain to keep them clean.

The water tank is a 2.5L rather than a 3L as in the previous models but retains the EM69101 anti-calcium cartridge. It is accessible via the top of the machine.
There is a small area next to the tank for storage of the cleaning pin, backflush disc and baskets.

The group head looks good however once you look underneath, you find a basic Sunbeam brass collar which will inevitably wear out. The shower screens and seal appear identical to previous models.
The group handle is the same as you find on an EM7000 and quite disappointingly needs to be locked in past 12 o'clock to ensure a good seal. This is most likely a production fault.
The manual lever next to the group simply activates a switch as far as I can tell but it feels nice and smooth to use.
The group head does have an LED under it for cup illumination which is a cool feature.

The steam and hot water knobs feel great in the hand and have a smooth movement. The steam valve feels the same as the EM7000 however it moves much more easily.
I am not sure whether the hot water is solenoid operated or a manual valve, I suspect solenoid.

The buttons for on/off, program, 1 cup 2 cup etc. are not the best, they are small and feel somewhat flimsy to the touch. They also get physically hot once the machine has been on for a while.
They are very similar to Breville appliance's buttons having a central button with a white illuminated ring.

The LCD display is simple and effective. It displays "Ready" when the machine is good to go and automatically changes to the shot clock when a shot is started.
The programming options are:

PID control for coffee thermoblock (between 86C-98C) Default is 92C
Adjustment of the steam pump rate (1-7) Default is 4
Preinfusion control (P1-P4) Default is P1
Cleaning cycle reminder (50L, 100L, 180L) Default is 100L

I am using it on all default values for now.

*Performance*

From cold to Ready takes around a minute. The group head is actively heated by the third thermoblock I think. With no preheating by running water through the group, it's hot to the touch after around 5 minutes.
I left it for 10 minutes before using.

The noise is similar to the EM7000 but may be a little louder, basically because there are larger body panels to resonate the pump noise and mesh grilles to rattle.
It's certainly quieter than any other vibration pump driven Italian machine that I've ever used though.

Shot quality is better than the EM7000. Using the Precision grinder and fresh beans (roast date 18/12), the pour was a little thin.
Swapped to my Compak K3 and immediately got a better result. This isn't exactly a surprise.

The pressure gauge is literally useless, it's in a class of it's own how useless it is. With the needle in the green zone, the shot was blonding by 18 seconds.
To get a good extraction of around 35-40ml in 30 seconds, the needle was sitting on 14-15 bar, basically at the edge of it's limit, deep into the red.
They admit in the instruction manual that the gauge is only to be used as a guide but I think that it may still misinform the novice home user.

The hot water wand is much faster than on previous models so it might actually be useful for making long blacks and tea.

Steam performance is exceptional, it's unlike anything you have ever used before with a thermoblock.
With the steam rate on the default of 4, it was steaming 175ml of fridge-temperature milk up to 65C within 25 seconds.
True, this is not much different from a properly functioning EM7000 but it was just so easy to use, any novice could make good froth or microfoam with minimal practice.

Single hole steam tip, ball joint wand, very easy to use.

Sunbeam ditched the milk temperature sensor but retained the cool touch steam wand which is great.

*Value for money*

At this stage with the machine having only been on the market for around 1.5 months, it would be unwise to pay the full retail price of $2000.
I was the first person to buy this machine from my local Harvey Norman store so clearly the price point is not sitting well with the consumer.
I think we all knew this given the previous replies on this thread.

It's simply not worth $2000 no matter how you look at it. Maybe I'll change my mind once I've pulled it apart to see the internal build quality but I don't think this will happen.

As always with the first release of any high end home appliance, there will inevitably be faults that will show themselves after a while and this machine will be no different.

*Conclusion*

Sunbeam have built a good looking and capable machine. Shot quality is great for a domestic machine, steam performance is excellent and the general usability and feel of the machine is high quality.
The pressure gauge is misleading for the novice user and needs to be recalibrated for future products.

The retail price of $2000 is too high. This is reflected by, as far as I can tell, very low product sales so far. It would be inadvisable to purchase this machine at this price.

I will update the thread later once I have checked out the machine internals. Feel free to ask any questions.

[artman]

Great review. I had a brief look at one in the shop, for people in the know I would have thought a more traditions machine would be the way to go. Will be interesting to see how it fares sales wise and also it's longer term durability.

Cheers

[noidle22]

Here are some more findings.

The machine sputters a lot of steam and water out into the drip tray and some water through the group head when it is starting up and also whilst it is just idling.
This is common to some extent in the other Sunbeam machines but this one is excessive.

What I think is happening is the coffee thermoblock is heating and expelling water back through the solenoid and anti-drip valve in the group head.

As a result, the preinfusion is not effective as the preinfusion stage basically just pumps water back in to the thermoblock and then water starts flowing from the group once extraction is underway.
If shots are pulled consecutively or without much delay in between, the water flow is normal through the preinfusion stage.

The only way to get around this aside from purging the group before making the shot is to set the preinfusion to the maximum setting which pumps more water through.

This is definitely an area that will require revision by Sunbeam.

I have had to set the steam pump rate back to 2 rather than the default of 4 (this has essentially halved the pump rate) as it was just too powerful. Using the supplied 600ml jug with milk filled to about 1cm below the start of the spout it was becoming difficult to control.

The pump rate goes up to 7, I can't see the application for needing it to be this powerful unless you are steaming an actual barrel of milk or the cow itself.

The delay between opening the steam tap and full power is about 3 seconds, this is after the machine has sat for ~10 minutes.
If the steaming is consecutive, there is basically no delay.

This is quite impressive as the main complaints that I have seen regarding thermoblocks for steaming is:

a) They're not very powerful
b) You need to wait for them to get to full power

Whether this power keeps up once the machine gets a bit older remains to be seen.

Another issue, clearance from the drip tray to the portafilter spouts is 9cm. This means that most mugs or large cups do not fit easily.
As this machine is targeted for the domestic market where most people want mugs of drink and probably don't have low and wide cups which are more standard for high end users and connoisseurs this will probably get annoying.

[Jester]

Thanks so much for going to so much trouble Noidle to explain to us some of the characteristics of this machine.

Regards


John

[noidle22]

Disassembled the machine today and I now understand why they have the RRP so high.

90% of the machine is brand new.

Some new features include:

-New thermoblock design. Same style of thermoblock used for the coffee and steam rather than a thermocoil for the coffee.
-Steam thermoblock insulation
-Full size steam pump (Ulka EP5 equivalent, this explains the impressive power)
-Actively heated group head, this is the third thermoblock
-Nylon tube used exclusively
-Solenoid controlled steam tap rather than a manual valve
-Single 3-way solenoid used to direct water flow to the group head or hot water wand
-Exhaust solenoid mounted next to the 3-way solenoid via a nylon hose, no physical attachment to the thermoblock or group head as with previous models.

I am disappointed that they have not fitted an OPV. It does not make sense why they haven't fitted one. Retrofitting a Breville OPV or any other inline OPV will not be difficult and will probably be something I do in the future.

A possible potential problem is that they have used a lot of fittings with the 8mm o-ring and spring clip to hold it into place, much like on most other domestic machines. These leak over time, particularly the ones under brew pressure.
I suspect these will start leaking eventually. Not a major problem really, cheap and easy to fix when they do wear out.

The reason behind the smooth steam and hot water knob movement is that all they are doing is engaging a microswitch.
Seems to be a lot of design for a simple task but it was necessary for it to look the part and it is certainly of a high quality.

The machine components are primarily attached to what is the front of the machine as you look at it from the front. The pumps, power cord and flowmeter are attached to the base.

The water tank compartment, which the circuit board is attached to, is large and sturdy. A bracket holds this along with the mounts for the back and sides which is affixed to the front of the machine.
It appears to be well thought out and well built.

I am yet to disassemble the group but that is the next task. I suspect, and I hope this is the case, the group collar (as seen in a photo on a previous post) is affixed with the two philips head screws and simply wedges in to the back of the group somehow. However they have done it, I think collar changes are going to be a lot easier than they used to be.

[Melbroaster]

Just curious are you in the trade or just doing a teardown for fun?

[TC]

Doggies breaky. Internal build says $1k.