Giotto Rocket vs Breviile Oracle

[Cafeconleche7]

Hello Coffee Lovers!! Well I am new to the online world of Coffee Snobs, but not new to coffee. So...a little introduction about myself. My first coffee machine was a Brunetti Simona Top which I purchased just over 21 years ago (1995). It was amazing for it's time given that domestic coffee machines were pretty much limited to filtered coffee machines or if you were more advanced maybe a Bialetti Stove Top Perculator. It was always the center of attention when friends visited to see a commercial grade coffee machine (with an E61 filter handle) in the home. This machine was noisy, only had one boiler and a pretty average steam wand that was incapable of producing a velvet texture the milk. Despite this however, it kept me going for 9 years until I had enough with its shortcomings. It wasn't long before the automatics started arriving and it was the Jura Impressa E85 that caught my attention in 2004. At the time it resembled the sleek styling of a European Motor Vehicle, with high grade plastics, led lighting, rotary switches etc. However it wasn't long before I realised that these machines were only capable of consistency.....more specifically, consistently average coffee at the press of a button! So...after 3 years of very convenient, but consistently average coffee, I purchased the Giotto Rocket!!! Wow, a terrific quality machine that produced excellent coffee and looked terrific in my coffee bar area!!! BUT (yes there is a but) after 10 years of sometimes good, sometimes bad coffee...I am on the hunt for yet another machine.

I guess I should point out that whilst I have a fair understanding and appreciation of coffee....I am no master barista. I need a quality machine, that has features that help control the many variables that affect the quality of coffee. So am am thinking about the Breville Oracle. I know that some of you would think that is madness (coming from a Rocket), however keep in mind that I have used all types of machines and as a very busy property developer, I just want a machine that consistently produces quality coffee with minimal fuss. I am no longer the type to spend endless hours trying to master and produce the ultimate cup of coffee....been there, done that. I consider myself to be a realist. I would appreciate your thoughts and advice!

[dumiya]

" BUT (yes there is a but) after 10 years of sometimes good, sometimes bad coffee...I am on the hunt for yet another machine"
Interesting, not sure what model Rocket you have. I can produce consistently good to excellent coffee every week from an 08 Rocket Premium hybrid plus. The beans are one of the keys and the grinder. Not sure why you get bad coffee. I suspect the same will apply to what ever you get.
I noticed this morning as I watch the local coffee shop set up they extracted at least 4 shots to get their marzocco right. A luxury a home machine/ barista doesn't have.

[artman]

The rocket and oracle are almost polar opposites.

You should be able to easily and repeatedly get ripper shots from your giotto. Perhaps invest a bit of time on some good training and you will be faster and get better results from your giotto than the oracle? I assume you are using decent/fresh beans and have a suitable grinder.

Cheers

[Cafeconleche7]

I buy fresh beans (500g at a time) to maintain freshness, and clearly that's a big factor. I use a conical burr grinder also. However factors such as how much coffee I grind into the filter basket, how much I tamper, how much water is passed through etc etc means that it is hit and miss for me. The Rocket is a terrific machine, just maybe not for me. I guess what I like about the Oracle is the automatic dispensing and tampering of the coffee. I also like that you can place the milk jug under the wand, set your milk temp, level of froth and walk away. The result in the store was incredible.

[Cafeconleche7]

Yes....Campos, Merlo, Di Bella. 500g at a time to keep beans fresh. Use a conical burr grinder (can't remember brand)

[skidquinn]

Agree with artman. Very different machines.
However, I suspect that you are expecting too much of a machine you can 'walk away' from.
you should have no issue producing great coffee with the beans you mentioned. I suspect shortfalls in either the grinder or user.
I also think some training courses using your rocket would be much more beneficial than a new breville.
Unfortunately they are yet to build a machine that doesn't require at least some effort on the part of the user to create great coffee.

[TC]

Welcome Cafeconleche7,

FWIW, I don't think you need a new machine at all. I think that what you want/need is timed doserless grinder.

Might I suggest you investigate grinders such as the Mazzer mini-e/super jolly-e, Macap M4D, Compak E5OD, Rocket Fausto et al..

I suspect that one of these will solve 90% of your problems, leave a whole heap of cash in your pocket and deliver better coffee more consistently than the Oracle will- with far higher reliability for the machine/grinder combo.

Good luck either way...

Chris

[artman]

The grind, dose and tamp you should be able to nail fairly easily. Likewise the milk. If you are willing to devote a bit of time to learn the above you will get great results.

Granted the oracle is unique in giving "real" coffee fairly easily. It is quite complex, it will be interesting to see how they go longevity wise.

Cheers

[Cafeconleche7]

Agree with artman. Very different machines.
However, I suspect that you are expecting too much of a machine you can 'walk away' from.
you should have no issue producing great coffee with the beans you mentioned. I suspect shortfalls in either the grinder or user.
I also think some training courses using your rocket would be much more beneficial than a new breville.
Unfortunately they are yet to build a machine that doesn't require at least some effort on the part of the user to create great coffee.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm not sure that the Oracle is entirely a machine that you can just 'walk away from'? That would be more like a Jura or a Delonghi wouldn't it. The whole idea of the Oracle is that it is a hybrid aimed at the home barista. Whilst it has some automatic functions/benefits you still need to adjust numerous settings depending on the coffee. You can also use it entirely in manual mode...so it kind of gives you the best of both worlds. It might be worth pointing out that I haven't yet committed to buying this machine....just considering it. The in-store demo however was very impressive.

[Cafeconleche7]

The rocket and oracle are almost polar opposites.

You should be able to easily and repeatedly get ripper shots from your giotto. Perhaps invest a bit of time on some good training and you will be faster and get better results from your giotto than the oracle? I assume you are using decent/fresh beans and have a suitable grinder.

Cheers

Different machines yes, but it seems people are still interested in comparing them...
https://youtu.be/1-GYTJREc0c

[artman]

The oracle is unique (and amazingly seems to accomplish automating some normally "artful" aspects - eg milk texturing), but as above it still needs user intervention in selecting grind, dose etc.

As mentioned by Chris, a good grinder with dose control will make this aspect easier for you (you could even get the OCD distribution gadget to help?) and you can continue to use the machine you have.

Cheers

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Different machines yes, but it seems people are still interested in comparing them...
https://youtu.be/1-GYTJREc0c

I look forward to their next installment, 'Which is better? A Horse or a Dolphin?'

On top the useful advice above, if you find you have trouble dosing consistently, the use of digital scales (if only as a feedback mechanism) can help.

[dumiya]

I had quite a learning curve. When I relaxed and did the timed extraction it came together. That is beans, grinder, tamp and using medicine measuring glasss to extract a total 54mls in 27 sec I got close to the taste I wanted. That is two glasses with 27ml in each. To sweeten the coffee I stop the shot at around 20 ml. I think the local marzocco 4G monster does this by selection for the lattes.
I guess the Oracle approximates this automatically but most units like the Rocket, it does require some human involvement apart from drinking the result..

[Cafeconleche7]

Great advice Chris. Richard, don't underestimate the importance of a quality grinder.

I use an ANFIM KS Grinder (direct grind on demand). Is that considered good enough quality??? Or would a Mini Mazzer be better??

[TC]

Hi Ccl,

The reason I suggested the grinders I did is that you can set grind size and then a predetermined grind time. This will allow you to work quickly, cleanly and remove the overwhelming majority of the variation you are experiencing.