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I had a play the morning and pushed around 250g of beans through my setup trying different combinations.
First thing I have notices is I definitely need that precision basket as ***** pointed out. My basket is the standard one and does not have a documented dose weight, but have read somewhere it is a 17g basket? I tried from 17g to 22g and the best results (look and taste) were at the higher end of the dose (20-22g).
The instructions in the video which Brewster posted resulted in a 22g dose and a very nice result, which is interesting because Scottie doesn't speak weight he seems to work only by volume?
After all that tasting I need to go burn some energy [emoji15]
I had a play the morning and pushed around 250g of beans through my setup trying different combinations.
First thing I have notices is I definitely need that precision basket as ***** pointed out. My basket is the standard one and does not have a documented dose weight, but have read somewhere it is a 17g basket? I tried from 17g to 22g and the best results (look and taste) were at the higher end of the dose (20-22g).
The instructions in the video which Brewster posted resulted in a 22g dose and a very nice result, which is interesting because Scottie doesn't speak weight he seems to work only by volume?
After all that tasting I need to go burn some energy [emoji15]
Hi Boggas, I need to apologise, as I misinterpreted your post about having ordered a VST as that you already had one. Part of my advice only really applied to the VSTs. For what it's worth, my stock ECM basket (likely the same or similar to the Profitec one) also only liked about 19g in it anyway, so my advice was not that far off, but I often would see first drips of the shot at about 5-7 seconds and the extraction would take longer, like 30-35 seconds. My manual in the parts listing suggested it was a 14g basket, but I didn't find that to be it's best operating weight...
[If this is confusing, ignore it: Weight and volume of coffee grounds is probably the biggest technique dispute around here (as opposed to instruction) as volume is ultimately concerned with the headroom between the puck and the showerscreen, whereas weight of grounds is concerned with the amount of product out the other end - in a sense, focussing on one is a compromise on the other, but the goal is to really find the sweet spot (hence why Scotty Callaghan has dosing tools to trim more or less off the top of your dose before tamping). The reason why VST et. al. even though offering set weight baskets often say with +/-1g is because of that volume/weight compromise. They don't know how deep each customer's showerscreen goes into the portafilter. A precision basket just lets you know what the ballpark of it's operating parameters are, you're probably getting close to finding that for the basket you currently have anyway. The rest is all technique that is largely basket-agnostic.]
So - while you're still working with the stock basket - try to find a volume of grounds that produces a good result, and if you can be bothered, weigh the grounds as well before locking it into the grouphead, and if you happen upon a good volume, try dosing by that same weight the next time and see if you can produce the same results. You'll see people talking about the 5c test. This might help you with this. You don't want your coffee puck to come into contact with the shower screen.
22g is still quite a lot to put into a basket, and is a weight often associated with triples. Amount of coffee and also the fineness of coffee will affect resistance, so if you're getting too fast a pour with 18-19g, then you could either increase the dose to fix it, or you can go finer to fix it. I personally would always opt for going finer, as increasing dose also means you're expecting more product out the other end.
I would suspect that with 22g you'd be getting a mega long dwell time (a result of resistance) as the water is still struggling to make it through the puck - at the point it starts coming through, it'll come faster than you want, and you'll end up with a normal shot time, but often a nasty tasting shot (sour and bitter). If you fixed the dwell time, but now it's pouring in 20 seconds, then you're too coarse and again your shot will taste nasty (bitter). To lessen the dwell time, lower the dose, and then to fix the pour time tighten the grind (that is if it's too fast).
Other things to look out for with your high dose:
- If knocking out your puck and there are dry spots in the puck (typically the puck will fall apart in this instance and you'll see the dry bits) - that means there are parts of the puck that haven't extracted yet. Either you channelled, or it didn't extract for long enough. The majority of the time channelling would be the reason. Distribute evenly and tamp the whole bed of coffee right to the edge. Don't let the coffee puck touch the showerscreen.
- If after knocking out the puck cleanly, and I notice the basket has oils sitting on the bottom, rather than being dry, there was more to extract from the puck - so for that dose, you would need to coarsen the grind slightly, or adjust your dose, in order to extract everything you want from it.
For what it's worth, I went through 500g of coffee on my first day of having a prosumer and didn't get a good shot. Maybe by the time I hit 2kg of coffee, I'd had some good pours but was still dosing too high in the basket (I was using 20-21g at the start, just like you, and my puck was basically hard against the shower screen). I had to find the sweet spot for my grind fineness in order to lower the doses. Once I did, I was getting much more even extractions.
Hi Boggas, I need to apologise, as I misinterpreted your post about having ordered a VST as that you already had one. Part of my advice only really applied to the VSTs. For what it's worth, my stock ECM basket (likely the same or similar to the Profitec one) also only liked about 19g in it anyway, so my advice was not that far off, but I often would see first drips of the shot at about 5-7 seconds and the extraction would take longer, like 30-35 seconds. My manual in the parts listing suggested it was a 14g basket, but I didn't find that to be it's best operating weight...
[If this is confusing, ignore it: Weight and volume of coffee grounds is probably the biggest technique dispute around here (as opposed to instruction) as volume is ultimately concerned with the headroom between the puck and the showerscreen, whereas weight of grounds is concerned with the amount of product out the other end - in a sense, focussing on one is a compromise on the other, but the goal is to really find the sweet spot (hence why Scotty Callaghan has dosing tools to trim more or less off the top of your dose before tamping). The reason why VST et. al. even though offering set weight baskets often say with +/-1g is because of that volume/weight compromise. They don't know how deep each customer's showerscreen goes into the portafilter. A precision basket just lets you know what the ballpark of it's operating parameters are, you're probably getting close to finding that for the basket you currently have anyway. The rest is all technique that is largely basket-agnostic.]
So - while you're still working with the stock basket - try to find a volume of grounds that produces a good result, and if you can be bothered, weigh the grounds as well before locking it into the grouphead, and if you happen upon a good volume, try dosing by that same weight the next time and see if you can produce the same results. You'll see people talking about the 5c test. This might help you with this. You don't want your coffee puck to come into contact with the shower screen.
22g is still quite a lot to put into a basket, and is a weight often associated with triples. Amount of coffee and also the fineness of coffee will affect resistance, so if you're getting too fast a pour with 18-19g, then you could either increase the dose to fix it, or you can go finer to fix it. I personally would always opt for going finer, as increasing dose also means you're expecting more product out the other end.
I would suspect that with 22g you'd be getting a mega long dwell time (a result of resistance) as the water is still struggling to make it through the puck - at the point it starts coming through, it'll come faster than you want, and you'll end up with a normal shot time, but often a nasty tasting shot (sour and bitter). If you fixed the dwell time, but now it's pouring in 20 seconds, then you're too coarse and again your shot will taste nasty (bitter). To lessen the dwell time, lower the dose, and then to fix the pour time tighten the grind (that is if it's too fast).
Other things to look out for with your high dose:
- If knocking out your puck and there are dry spots in the puck (typically the puck will fall apart in this instance and you'll see the dry bits) - that means there are parts of the puck that haven't extracted yet. Either you channelled, or it didn't extract for long enough. The majority of the time channelling would be the reason. Distribute evenly and tamp the whole bed of coffee right to the edge. Don't let the coffee puck touch the showerscreen.
- If after knocking out the puck cleanly, and I notice the basket has oils sitting on the bottom, rather than being dry, there was more to extract from the puck - so for that dose, you would need to coarsen the grind slightly, or adjust your dose, in order to extract everything you want from it.
For what it's worth, I went through 500g of coffee on my first day of having a prosumer and didn't get a good shot. Maybe by the time I hit 2kg of coffee, I'd had some good pours but was still dosing too high in the basket (I was using 20-21g at the start, just like you, and my puck was basically hard against the shower screen). I had to find the sweet spot for my grind fineness in order to lower the doses. Once I did, I was getting much more even extractions.
Thanks for that really informative post, by the sounds of it I am facing the standard challenges of buying a decent setup. I am going to keep putting more beans through it and taking in all the advice I can.
I have booked in a course with a local barista training college too as the last time I did one (many years ago) I was only playing with consumer grade gear.
Ok I had another go this morning and had a closer look at my puck and it displayed all the signs of over dose as you said it would readeral [emoji106]
I dropped my dose to 19g and have adjusted my grind to get my pour time right and...... What a difference! My wife even commented on how nice her morning flat white was!
Now I have seen the difference I suspect I was channeling which is why I had a long dwell time followed by a fast pour once it broke through the puck, and that was throwing me of the root cause. [emoji4]
My 20g VST and naked PF arrived today and no far the results have been great! I have heard a lot about precision baskets but must admit I probably underestimated how much difference they actually made.
Although the new basket holds a higher dose I have had to fine the grind, which I can only assume is due to improved flow through the basket? The pours looked better with a richer pour and a vastly different (In a good way) taste from the same beans on the stick basket.
I will upload a photo of the finished shot the amount of crema has also substantially increased.
Seeing I am new to this naked PF, I will post some videos of my pours tomorrow so you can all let me know how my shots are going [emoji4]
Here is this mornings efforts. I am thinking still a little fast on the pour at 23 seconds.
I am very open to constructive criticism [emoji106]
I reckon you could've gone another couple of seconds easily on that extraction, maybe more. It was pretty good in my opinion, but as you alluded to maybe just a little fast. If I got an extraction like that one myself I'd adjust my grinder a tad finer and keep everything else the same.
I reckon you could've gone another couple of seconds easily on that extraction, maybe more. It was pretty good in my opinion, but as you alluded to maybe just a little fast. If I got an extraction like that one myself I'd adjust my grinder a tad finer and keep everything else the same.
I knocked the grind back a bit and it has gone too far now. Not even worthy of a video [emoji16]
I knocked the grind back a bit and it has gone too far now. Not even worthy of a video [emoji16]
So too fine? That's ok, I usually like finding that point where extraction is way too slow or non existent as its a very definitive place to be. From there you can adjust one variable at a time to get the right result. Grind setting, dose level and even tamp pressure can be adjusted to get it right, just make sure you only do one at a time. Good luck.
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