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Hx shootout - Profitec v Rocket v ECM v Lelit

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  • wattgn
    replied
    You have to be careful with water. The scale actually protects the boiler although it has other bad effects. The ideal water has a slight tendency to form scale still and so descaling is still needed periodically.

    It sounds strange but true. The worst water is acidic or deionised water as it directly attacks the boiler and lines.

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  • trentski
    replied
    Originally posted by wattgn View Post
    Everyone should have a Breville Hot Water Jug, the clear glass one. I can see the scale build up in that on the element.
    I use the same water for the kettle as I do the Rocket and the kettle is scale free. Altona water is good but I'm still surprised. Work kettle in Camberwell scales up after a couple of days.

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  • TC
    replied
    Originally posted by magnafunk View Post
    Chris, the reason I mentioned the retailer informing the customer is because I remember being at the shed when you were helping someone get their new machine into the car and you were reiterating that they had to be sure to use suitable water and why that was the case
    That we do MF....Most don't remember any of the stuff I say though (excitement thing)- which is why it all goes in the education section of our website- for when retrospective due diligence is called for. Negligence doesn't cut it for me- no matter what the excuse is...

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  • wattgn
    replied
    Everyone should have a Breville Hot Water Jug, the clear glass one. I can see the scale build up in that on the element.

    What people maybe don't realise is that boilers in a coffee machine will scale up many times worse, potentially, as it is hot for much longer and there can be concentration of the salts unless a lot of water is passed through the boiler.

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  • magnafunk
    replied
    Chris, the reason I mentioned the retailer informing the customer is because I remember being at the shed when you were helping someone get their new machine into the car and you were reiterating that they had to be sure to use suitable water and why that was the case

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  • TC
    replied
    Originally posted by magnafunk View Post
    That would come under misuse, of course that depends on your retailer informing you of the importance of using filtered water
    Or....it might also be considered an item of due diligence- like learning that your car may require oil every so often in an ownership period.

    Just today a shagged Alex Duetto. Plumbed and on 5+Bar of inlet pressure since day one. Filter or OPV? Nope. What for?

    People abuse espresso machines and many wait for failure before they think of repair. Servicing? What servicing?

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  • magnafunk
    replied
    Originally posted by symphonie View Post
    Say it runs on crappy tap water (SA WA comes to mind) not mineral, and it still gets blocked with scale. Would it be warrantable?
    That would come under misuse, of course that depends on your retailer informing you of the importance of using filtered water

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  • readeral
    replied
    Hi Symphonie, no it wouldn't be warrantable, just like your kettle wouldn't be warrantable. As the retailer can only educate on what should be put into the machine, as oppose to control it, if the machine is used improperly it's not warrantable. When you pop open a machine's manual it'll have a section dedicated to water hardness and indicate the importance of an adequate filter, which should be sufficient prompting to investigate what else is required by you to properly operate the machine.

    To be entirely over the top, if you put lemonade through the machine, it wouldn't be warrantable even if the majority of the soft-drink is water. Likewise, if you backflushed with inappropriate chemicals, it's not warrantable.

    Also entirely over the top, if the reseller specified as a feature that you could put ANY water through a machine, and it would not build up with scale - and then it built up with scale - that would be a warrantable issue as the performance of the machine had not met the advertised standard. You'll never see this claim.

    The closest you'll get is if the machine had an integrated water softener/filter which advertised mineral reduction to a safe level for a period of 12 months within specific water quality measurements (which the manual would stipulate you'd have to gather yourself), and then the filter failed prematurely - then it might become warrantable for scale. However, you'll find that most integrated filters are 'consumable' parts, only to be used for a limited time, and generally require significantly reduced mineral deposits in the water source anyway. A seller would likely advise to filter the water in this instance.

    Basically - when it comes to scale - the ball is entirely in the consumers court. Don't put a banana in your toaster, don't put lemonade in your Espresso machine.

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  • symphonie
    replied
    Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Agreed Al,

    Buyers need to be mindful that they can't outsource correct maintenance. Negligence is not covered by warranty:

    We had a Giotto taken to an office- dead after 6 months. Owners screaming warranty!

    Steam wand 2cm wide with milk debris. Run on mineral water (I kid you not ) and almost completely blocked with scale- everywhere. Most of the electronics had to be replaced and it was case of disassemble everything else and soak in acid.

    The nett result was $1400 in repairs and no warranty whatsoever!
    Say it runs on crappy tap water (SA WA comes to mind) not mineral, and it still gets blocked with scale. Would it be warrantable?

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  • wattgn
    replied
    I agree water quality is one area where the vendor has no control over what the end user does. Very few people really understand anything about water chemistry.

    Leave a comment:


  • TC
    replied
    Agreed Al,

    Buyers need to be mindful that they can't outsource correct maintenance. Negligence is not covered by warranty:

    We had a Giotto taken to an office- dead after 6 months. Owners screaming warranty!

    Steam wand 2cm wide with milk debris. Run on mineral water (I kid you not ) and almost completely blocked with scale- everywhere. Most of the electronics had to be replaced and it was case of disassemble everything else and soak in acid.

    The nett result was $1400 in repairs and no warranty whatsoever!

    Leave a comment:


  • readeral
    replied
    Originally posted by wattgn View Post
    I think an extended warranty is a great idea and yes I'd like to see coffee machines with a longer warranty. I think that the only reason it hasn't happened is not many do it but that might change.

    Australian Consumer Law is a hit and miss thing, difficult to enforce. If the seller doesn't budge the complainant has a lot of work to do.

    If, of course, all the problems on Prosumer machines manifest within 12 months then sellers should make the warranty 24 months as a rule. This wouldn't cost them anything extra...
    There is a number of costs associated with offering a further year, and it's all around perception, so hard to quantify.

    Firstly, what it costs is implied confidence. This forum isn't full of people bemoaning the fact that their prosumer warranty was only 12 months and now they're stuffed (if they are, it's due to parallel import), but you WILL find that complaint in the areas of this forum where people have a 24-36 year warranty on their appliance-made machine that has just expired, and now it is in repair for 3+ months and $400. To extend a warranty out where historically it hasn't been amounts to implying a reduced confidence in the longevity of these machines.

    It also gives the consumer a false sense of security. As Chris suggests above, a vast majority of issues are from misuse and abuse of machines. If the window for warrantable repair is lengthened, then the consumer might neglect maintenance and general daily service of the machine. That's a lose for the consumer, as they've not looked after the machine, and a lose for the business - as they might find themselves needing to defend their business from false claims.

    An extended warranty becomes a smokescreen to obscure the consumer law. If something isn't covered under the terms of the so called 'extended warranty' then the customer thinks they're stuck, and now need to pay. The assumption (and what they're being sold on) is that an extended warranty goes beyond the consumer law, although this is entirely untrue. So a retailer gets to double dip selling the extended warranty.

    All sales of goods come with the following statement attached to warranty statements:
    "Our goods come with guarantees that cannot beexcluded under the Australian Consumer Law.You are entitled to a replacement or refund fora major failure and compensation for any otherreasonably foreseeable loss or damage. Youare also entitled to have the goods repaired orreplaced if the goods fail to be of acceptablequality and the failure does not amount to amajor failure."

    Any reasonable seller will give service at the point where consumer law indicates they haven't provided a suitably reliable product. It's up to the consumer to pick their retailers and to ensure that they know they can not only get a reasonable price, but will be able to continue their relationship with the retailer. This is why I chose Jet Black when I bought my machine, and I did have a non-warrantable issue that still came under consumer law (my perception of what the product would do), and they were excellent about getting me sorted out quickly.

    Basically - consumers want to outsource their own carefulness to the cost of an extended warranty. If careful work is put in first by the consumer, as has already been put in my the reputable retailer, there shouldn't be an issue.
    Last edited by readeral; 20 October 2016, 04:12 PM. Reason: grammar

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  • Lukemc
    replied
    Hx shootout - Profitec v Rocket v ECM v Lelit

    Withdrawn comment
    Last edited by Lukemc; 20 October 2016, 01:46 PM.

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  • aussieflicker
    replied
    Why don't the VBM domobar machines get a mention?

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  • wattgn
    replied
    Originally posted by readeral View Post
    Burgeoning warranties are just a means of cost cutting at the development/manufacturing stage for appliance makers. It's selling systematic failure to consumers as 'extra protection' and 'value'. If someone wants to offer me 5 years of warranty on something, that's alarm bells not protection.

    It's not that prosumer machines don't need a warranty, they do (and by law they do), it's just that the warranty is realistic. Australian Consumer law, as Chris mentioned, then ensures that a consumer is covered for anything that is their right but didn't neatly fit within 'warranty'.

    As you say Wattgn, good service is paramount, and having a plan from the outset about where and when you're going to service your machine is better than any extended warranty you might have. In a few years I'm moving back to Tasmania from Sydney, and I already knew before I bought the machine where I would get it serviced adequately there.

    "Lock in good service and the rest will look after itself" absolutely.
    I think an extended warranty is a great idea and yes I'd like to see coffee machines with a longer warranty. I think that the only reason it hasn't happened is not many do it but that might change.

    Australian Consumer Law is a hit and miss thing, difficult to enforce. If the seller doesn't budge the complainant has a lot of work to do.

    If, of course, all the problems on Prosumer machines manifest within 12 months then sellers should make the warranty 24 months as a rule. This wouldn't cost them anything extra...

    Leave a comment:

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