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  • Giotto Rocket

    I've seen a Rocket Giotto advertised for sale for $950.
    It doesn't say a lot about it as far as servicing history (if any) goes.

    Wonder if I should go and look at it?

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  • #2
    Looks like a very old one mate...
    If purchasing as a refurbed unit from a reputable specialist retailer, with a warranty, then it would be Ok...

    Mal.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Mal.

      Private sale, no warranty, possibly no history.
      Sounds like I should leave it.

      How old do you think it is?

      Comment


      • #4
        It's a pre 2007 Giotto Premium (could be as old as 2003) and looks to be in pretty good nick- at least outwardly. The actual age of the machine can be obtained by checking the #SN where the first 6 digits represent the year and month of manufacture.

        Assuming it's operating, my advice is if you allocate $300-500 for a major service including possible descale and rewire to current spec (if not already completed), you will be left with an excellent machine. We'd sell at circa $1.5k inc GST and 3 month warranty if we were to trade one...

        They are very simple and very robust. You will need a cooling flush with this vintage though unless it's been fitted with restrictors and calibrated.

        Good luck...

        Chris

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
          It's a pre 2007 Giotto Premium (could be as old as 2003) and looks to be in pretty good nick- at least outwardly. The actual age of the machine can be obtained by checking the #SN where the first 6 digits represent the year and month of manufacture.

          Assuming it's operating, my advice is if you allocate $300-500 for a major service including possible descale and rewire to current spec (if not already completed), you will be left with an excellent machine. We'd sell at circa $1.5k inc GST and 3 month warranty if we were to trade one...

          They are very simple and very robust. You will need a cooling flush with this vintage though unless it's been fitted with restrictors and calibrated.

          Good luck...

          Chris
          Thanks Chris for the advice.
          Much appreciated.

          Will ask the seller some questions.......

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Weasel84

            So unless I'm missing something, or the machine in question is a fake, or has been noticeably damaged (and thereby rendering it dangerous to operate unless subsequently modified), the expense of rewiring an HX espresso machine in all other cases seems completely unnecessary.
            I think you will find that Chris is referring replacing of the actual electrical wiring to the current specification, as the original wiring to some components is not of sufficient gauge/capacity.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Weasel84
              As the Giotto is a very old model, then yes it probably needs a service.

              However, Chris, this whole supposed need to rewire and spec machines is a tad suspect and questionable.
              It's not questionable at all. Early models had the pressurestat wired low tension to the control board and killed boards. The new wiring protocol avoids cooked boards...

              None of this has anything whatsoever to do with Robusta....

              Sometimes...best not to comment if you dunno...

              Comment


              • #8
                No worries Weasel.

                I'm curious to know with which manufacturers in particular you have spoken with because you know what? Pretty much every sponsor here will disagree with you and will have hard evidence to disprove your statement.

                I suggest you buy the machine, bring it in and we'll check together to see if it's in original spec. If it is, it will run hot. If our Scace proves me wrong, I'll buy it from you and give you a hundred for your trouble as well.

                We modified Veneziano S1 just 2 weeks ago running super hot and with a substantial cooling flush..

                These days, manufacturers generally set their machines up to suit our coffee. In the past they didn't and it was evident in substantial cooling flushes.

                I'll maintain my earlier advice. There is hot water and this one is backed up with hot air to boot.

                I am so over self-appointed internet experts questioning the ethics and credibility of our sponsors.
                Last edited by TC; 12 December 2016, 06:15 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Weasel,
                  i agree with some of your sentiments, especially regarding robusta content in Italian espresso, etc.
                  One thing you have got wrong is that just because they are importers, does not me a they know about the thermal operation of an espresso machine. Believe me, I've spoken to these guys myself. Knowlegable people are few and far between in this industry.

                  The thing with an e61 machine is that, it's a heat sync. Almost like a flywheel on a car. Superheated water passing through the group actually injects heat into the group, as well as clearing the superheated water from the water path.
                  The huge mass of the group flattens out the temperature movements and then gives you a good water temperature within an acceptable range to make good espresso. There's always a tolerance and given all the factors like flush time, the temperature has an acceptable tolerance. It's not brain surgery, and it's an imperfect art , but I can tell you that ambient temperature will make very little difference to the huge group's temperature, unless you are outsid and in the snow!

                  I was a sceptic like you, but once the coffee machinist got my machine dialled in, it was a totally different beast. He also showed me on the scace dial the effect the flush has on group temp. I saw the numbers on the readout myself !
                  Whether you believe it or not, thermosyphon restrictors work, and personally any machine I get from now on will go straight to Rick to dial in.
                  Cheers

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Phew...

                    More "hot air" than I can stand...
                    The topics you have broached "weasel" have been covered ad nauseam over the years.
                    It would be much better for everyone, in my opinion, if you undertake a search through older discussions about these and other matters so as to avoid us all having to repeat it all again; with the added benefit of avoiding the unnecessary ruffling of feathers, for no overall benefit to anyone...

                    Mal.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Weasel84
                      As the Giotto is a very old model, then yes it probably needs a service.

                      However, Chris, this whole supposed need to rewire and spec machines is a tad suspect and questionable. It's been claimed by the sponsors on this forum incessantly that Australians need specialised, configured HX machines with a properly installed thermosiphon restrictor to prevent flash boiling/overheating; to optimise local roast brewing; and to almost eliminate the need for cooling flushes.

                      Before I clarify anything further, let's address the cooling flush. As one knowledgeable importer of Italian espresso machines explained to me, it's possible to minimise the flush, albeit at the expense of some steam pressure. However, the only way to eliminate it altogether would be to hold the boiler at slightly above room temperature (hence no steam) in a climate-controlled room, with perfect insulation for all pipes.
                      I normally would not take the bait on this kind of post, but I just can't help myself. This has got to be one of the most misguided, inflammatory pieces of pernicious nonsense ever to grace the pages of CS.

                      Let me clarify your clarification, your 'knowledgeable importer' does not understand how to tune a thermosyphon. Let me attempt to explain. Ohm's Law gives a surprisingly apt analogy if you understand basic electrical circuits. You can think of the steam boiler as the power source, or V for Voltage. The amount of energy transferred through the thermosyphon tubes (think of them as conductors), can be controlled with a restrictor, or in the electrical sense, a resistor, R. The values of V and R will give us amps, or current, I. In the thermosyphon, this is the speed at which water can flow through the restrictor, and consequently the amount of energy that will be dissipated by the group, and at what temperature it will operate.

                      So by changing the values of V (boiler pressure) and of R (restrictor size) in the thermosyphon circuit, we can change I (thermosyphon flow rate) to give the correct voltage / heat transfer at the group.

                      I'm sure you love the idea that there is a vast conspiracy amongst CS sponsors to rip off the espresso machine purchasing public by peddling non-existent features, but you've confused that with good old fashioned idea of 'wanting to sell the best possible performing machinery to make their customers happy and minimise the amount of after sales back and forth about why the coffee is rubbish'. Clearly some are less scrupulous or just plain old ignorant.

                      Case in point - a machine just came to market in Australia recently from a very reputable manufacturer. They sought the advice of the importer on how they wanted the machine to perform, and they passed it on to me to make some recommendations. I can confidently say that the changes made delivered a machine orders of magnitude more likely to please the average Aussie punter, and not just in terms of group temperature.

                      So yeah, you're missing something.

                      -Rick

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Before the easrtwhile newer member (W84) hijacks this thread on the OP completely. My experience and knowledge of this era machine is that the advice offered by TC is precisely consistent and inline with the experience of many members here WITH THAT Specific Model.
                        Re: the 'rewiring' mentioned refers to a rework to aleviate a torched main circuit board which is a known and repetitive issue (wiith this specific model / date of production).
                        And subsequently rectified in following models by the manufacturer.

                        It is somewhat amazing to see a respondant jump to a completely wrong assumption, hastily clear the bees out from under his bonnet..... then proceed to dig himself a huge whole in that his point(s) are sidetracked so far down a dry gully its bordering on hilarious.

                        W84 if you might accept this suggestion in the good faith that it is offered - and as Javaphile has said many times - the search function is your friend!

                        You might want to use it in this case. Try Giotto Main Board Failure. Or CoffeeMachinist Tuning E61.
                        Don't forget its best to use one of the search engines and then add a ' + coffeesnobs' rather than the search function available on this forum (at top of page).

                        As for post #6 and #9 ....If your quick ...The edit function could also be your friend.
                        I've been told cleaning Egg off ones face can be a time consuming and messy past time.

                        PS I mean no malice or disrespect in my post above. But to see such misconstrued tripe in post #6 which then goes further and further off the mark...
                        and then post #9 seems to try to recover ground before reinforcing the intent of the earlier post.
                        Well it begs for those posts to be called out for what they are....!
                        Last edited by EspressoAdventurer; 12 December 2016, 07:25 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Seeing that my original question about the Rocket Giotto was answered satisfactorily, please feel free to lock or delete this thread thanks.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            PSS My Post #17 (above) is in direct response to posts 1 to 10.. And quite a few responses hit the boards before I could 1 finger type up ( ok im only a humble mechanic with no keyboard skills) my response and post.

                            Oh boy this is going too be a cracker of a thread .... and nothing relevant to the OP original Question.
                            G L ...LFM60 with your search / purchase! BTW

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post
                              PSS My Post #17 (above) is in direct response to posts 1 to 10.. And quite a few responses hit the boards before I could 1 finger type up ( ok im only a humble mechanic with no keyboard skills) my response and post.

                              Oh boy this is going too be a cracker of a thread .... and nothing relevant to the OP original Question.
                              G L ...LFM60 with your search / purchase! BTW
                              Thanks EspressoAdventurer. PS. Don't say ONLY a humble mechanic.......very important trade, that one.

                              Comment

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