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  • HX versus DB

    Hi, I am about to pass my current HX machine on to one of my daughters, and upgrade to a newer HX or DB for myself.

    Among several contenders at the moment are the Lelit Mara PL62T and the Diana PL60T V2. ( If I decide to go with a HX, then a few other machine will make the short list).

    My main question here is why would I pay more for a HX machine when the DB appears to offer more features and better control for less ??

    To forestall at least some of the questions that will possibly arise - my other critera are that I would prefer a 58mm group, as I already have several tampers, portafilters and baskets. Doesn't have to be an E61, but I would not want any odd sizes.
    I prefer a tank as I don't want to plumb anything in. Size is not an issue, neither is noise level.
    I do coffees (mostly lattes), for groups of up to 20 people once or twice a month. Some of them usually drink tea, but I need to be able to knock out at least a dozen or so within an hour or less, with a few coming back for a second cup a bit later.

    My budget tops out at $3K Max for the machine only. And yes, I'm already well aware of the need for a good grinder.

    Thanks in advance for any and all replies.

  • #2
    I had it explained to me in terms of recovery time. DB, because of the independent boilers can offer quicker back-to-back coffees with more consistency than HX (pull shot, steam at same time and not worry about fluctuations in temp and pressure). IMO, HX is for light use, DB for heavy use or more exploration of the coffee you are buying. Considering that you do big groups already, I think DB is probably the way to go

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    • #3
      Either one would be able to knock out at least a dozen or so within an hour.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-KiJzO7exQ&t=7s

      I bought PL60Tv2 over the HX due to its quick heat up time (10 minutes vs 30 minutes on HX), and the ability to fine tune the brew temperature.

      I reckon Mara would be a lot more powerful in steaming due to its boiler size however steaming on PL60tv2 is good enough for me.




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      • #4
        Pro 300 is a way better choice than PL60t if its within your budget. The build quality of Lelit IMO is not as good as the other brands I have owned in the past.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by sacsnob View Post
          Either one would be able to knock out at least a dozen or so within an hour.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-KiJzO7exQ&t=7s

          I bought PL60Tv2 over the HX due to its quick heat up time (10 minutes vs 30 minutes on HX), and the ability to fine tune the brew temperature.

          I reckon Mara would be a lot more powerful in steaming due to its boiler size however steaming on PL60tv2 is good enough for me.




          I agree a good HX should produce shot after shot just as well as the dual boiler. It would more be a single boiler that would be the slower. Aren't/weren't most commercial cafe machines HX machines?

          In this case the warm up times may be right as the Mara is an E61 group head. An E61 dual boiler would take 30mins to warm up as well as the wait is for the group head to warm up not the HX system if I'm not mistaken. All these times depend on configuration of each machine and the group head styles, like dual boilers with a small boiler integrated into/sitting on top of the group head should heat up quicker.

          The main advantages, as I see, for a DB is more accurate control of brew temps (but a good HX shouldn't be far of the mark) and the ability to change that temp as desired to try to extract different flavours and to suit different beans.

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          • #6
            Tom93 , sacsnob, Alastair and Paul - thanks for those answers, they tend to confirm most of what I was thinking in relation to the HX V DB comparison. And also raised a point or two I had not considered.

            I was using the two Lelits as an example, but I could have used the Profitec Pro 300 / 500 too. They are on my list, and are within my budget, if only just, however, they do seem to get lots of praise for the quality of materials, finish etc.

            Paul - I will send you a PM re this shortly.

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            • #7
              Degree they are a lot of machines available look at the Rockets and Bezzera are very well build and easy to get service.

              Regards

              Renzo

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              • #8
                Originally posted by sacsnob View Post
                Pro 300 is a way better choice than PL60t if its within your budget. The build quality of Lelit IMO is not as good as the other brands I have owned in the past.
                Agreed, with the budget you have I would be looking at ECM, Profitec, Bezzera, Rocket... IMO Lelit sits a bit below these brands

                Cheers

                Antony
                CASA ESPRESSO
                Casa Espresso - Home

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                • #9
                  Really, with all else being equal, the only advantage of a Dual-Boiler machine over a HX machine, is if you are mainly a black coffee drinker. The DB will then allow you to dial-in the ideal temperature for each and every coffee purchase you make. If this is not the situation, then a HX machine would be ideal...

                  The subtle differences between black coffee pours will be washed out when used in milk coffees.

                  Mal.
                  Last edited by Dimal; 3 May 2017, 07:25 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Agree with Casa Espresso. The lelit range generally sits below the EXAM, Rocket, Vibiemme ranges.

                    I'd only do the Mara if space is an issue as it is one of the narrowest on the market

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                    • #11
                      This may seem like a hijack, but here are my 2 cents' worth: I reckon the temp stability under load of a DB is tp an extent attributable to the water being preheated by a HX before entering the brew boiler. I think most DBs nowadays are designed like this, but I am not sure If it applies to all the machines suggested so far; this may be a criterium for the OP to consider.

                      Secondly: the E61 group was originally designed for a HX machine. The temperature gradient between the superheated HX water and the cooler grouphead induces the water to circulate and thus keep the grouphead hot. If the water circulates between the cooler brew boiler and the grouphead, one would think the thermosyphon would not be as effective and an alternate grouphead design may be better suited for a DB machine. Any thoughts?

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                      • #12
                        Wow, I'm learning a lot from this. Getting some facts straight in my head too

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nickm View Post
                          Agree with Casa Espresso. The lelit range generally sits below the EXAM, Rocket, Vibiemme ranges.

                          I'd only do the Mara if space is an issue as it is one of the narrowest on the market
                          Only 0.2cm narrower than say Vibiemme Junior.

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                          • #14
                            You'll find most of the sponsors gave equipment guides and tool to help you nartow down your search.
                            Worthwhile checking their pages in the forum for CS only deals.

                            Finally you can send an email to all sponsors with your requirements and get recommendations and quotes back. I'm on tapatalk so can't see it but on the website its at the top of the page.

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                            • #15
                              Thanks to everyone who responded here.

                              I'm not sure that it has made my decision any easier, but some of the points above were not on my radar, so I will be making a more informed choice when I do decide.

                              The practical side of my brain says "just get a shiny new top quality HX and be happy with it". The little man with OCD in my hind brain says "get a DB with muliplePID's - think of all the fun it will be to play with".

                              I suspect that the practical side will prevail, but then again... maybe not ................

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