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  • #31
    Interesting and informative read, thanks for posting! Kees van der Westen certainly makes some far out looking machines but are not our typical made-for-home equipment. I think the Mirage goes for around $12K US. In reading through their write up, they mentioned a couple times that they modified their Hx/E61 system to improve upon it and gain brewing temp stability but I don’t think our common household Hx machines get this level of mod when we pay $1,500.
    The article mentions a short cooling flush, 30-45cc which is pretty small but as I think back to E61 Hx machines I’ve used, that’s in the range I recall the flush to be, only takes a few seconds and yes, if you dwell too long, you will need to wait a few minutes before brewing to allow the temp to get back to brew temp.



    Thing is, a lot of people buy mid level prosumer machines and spend a lot of money but end up making milk based drinks in which case, did they over spend? ha ha Yeah, I know I did. I had planned on drinking mainly espresso but my wife likes latte’s and in order to get a nice microfoam froth, I need to use enough milk for two and I don’t like to just throw the extra away, so I cave and drink latte’s with her most of the time. Oh well, I like my machine anyway even just to look at it :-)

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    • #32
      Martino have you considered using a smaller milk jug?

      Comment


      • #33
        Ha ha, in fact I have played around with a few diff sizes. The one I use now when I make two latte's holds a total of 480ml, I only fill it to 230ml and our latte's are small, only 6 ozs (177ml). This rather small size produces a nice deep coffee flavor with just the right amount of foam for us. Sometimes when at a cafe, they put so much milk in that its hard to taste the coffee and you get filled up with milk....the beauty of making it at home is you make what you like.
        I have the Synchronika steam boiler set for 1.5 bar and it produces a wet paint silky froth that feels great in the mouth and makes nice latte art (when I'm in the mood :-) When company is over, I use a larger jug with probably 50% more milk and I crank the steam boiler up to 2 bar. Works great. The Synchronika, even at 1.5 bar steams quite quickly and I have the process timed so by the time the shots are done, so is the frothing and everyone gets a nice hot drink.

        If I use less milk, and sometimes when my wife pours the milk she'll put less in the jug, the steam is so powerful that it produces a lot of bubbles and if you aren't careful, you'll zip right past the stretching phase and into the heating phase and ruin the froth. My Synchronika has the joystick controls which I love but they are more of an on/off than rotary controls. No complaints here, its all about practice and patience. Oh, yeah, milk too...the type of milk makes a huge difference in its ability to create microfilm. We only use 2%, don't care if its organic or not but it does greatly depend on which brand we buy. Some simply don't work I have learned.

        All that said, I do make straight espresso's once in a while, its just not as often as I had imagined I would. I also like macchiato's. My in laws were here staying with us for a couple of months, since there were four of us for coffee, I would steam a bit more milk, like 250-260ml, make the two latte's for the girls and had enough milk left over for two macchiato's. I rather enjoyed that and that is what I drink when we go to Italy.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Martino View Post
          ... In reading through their write up, they mentioned a couple times that they modified their Hx/E61 system to improve upon it and gain brewing temp stability but I don’t think our common household Hx machines get this level of mod when we pay $1,500. ...
          Originally posted by JetBlack_Espresso View Post
          There are many HX machines available in Australia which do not need a cooling flush before extracting espresso.
          For example, the Lelit Mara 62S is temperature stable. That is, no cooling flushes are required and the brew water is at the correct temperature for espresso whether you are making back to back shots or the machine hasn't been used for hours.

          charlie

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          • #35
            Charlie,
            re: Lelit Mara 62S...Can you set the temp for coffee water yourself as well as change it if you want to?

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            • #36
              The Lelit Mara 62S brew water temperature is set by the design of the HX, so is not changeable by the user. The Lelit Mara 62T has a PID which controls the steam boiler temperature and therefore also the brew water temperature (indirectly).

              charlie

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JetBlack_Espresso View Post
                The short version: The water in the HX circuit reaches an equilibrium temperature (ET) that is below the boiler temp and this ET is set by the design of the whole HX/thermosyphon/E61 system. It is possible to achieve a ET that is anywhere from 80 degrees C to well over 100 C. When it's over 100 C it is obvious because the group head will hiss and spit steam if the group head has not been used for some time ("some time" is also a function of the design parameters of the HX system). One factor which may help explain how this is possible - consider that the water constantly circulates through the HX (or boiler in a DB/SB E61) and group head in an E61 equipped machine and the E61 is a heat radiator (effectively cooling down the brew water). It's this cooling that causes the brew water to be below the temperature of the water in the boiler.

                A properly designed HX-E61 machine requires no cooling flush and the brew water temperature will be right where it needs to be from first shot to last shot (as long as the machine has had enough time to reach it's ET).

                charlie
                hi Charlie, quick question, is the ECM Technika V one such machine? I’m looking into coffee machines and grinders now and you seem to know your stuff

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                • #38
                  so many opinions and so much technical data. I own an ecm giotto and recently upped the boiler pressure to 1.3 bar which in turn ups the temperature. my reason for this was the temp at the group wasnt high enough for proper espresso extraction and I was never getting the desired result. when I upped the pressure I installed a restrictor to the group head to keep the group from over heating. now I have only tasted with my tastebuds however the change in espresso is incredible. the flavour profiles are so different and not just noticeable with espresso but also my wifes capachino and the odd latte. I read all the data but at the end of the day the data doesnt taste good in my mouth. the coffee in the cup has really been a game changer. highly reccomend if your boiler is sitting below 1 bar. up it to 1
                  2-1.3 add a restrictor and change your life

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                  • #39
                    Charlie's explanation is correct and note his last sentence/caveat. I found wbroadhead’s post quite interesting and believe it demonstrates what I will say here.

                    There's no reliable/repeatable way to know what the coffee brew water temp is on a Hx machine without some sort of measurement/gauge because even with a PID controlled Hx machine, such as the new ECM Technika V Profi with PID, the temp setting and monitoring of its temp is for the steam boiler, not the coffee brew water. As you adjust the steam boiler temp in an attempt to raise or lower the steam pressure the water temp inside the Hx (your coffee water) raises or lowers as well, it has to by design. Reference ECM's chart below to see ECM’s correlated temps, their chart is derived from their machine design. The typical brass ECM E61 group head weighs 3.6kg. That sucker is a huge mass and as Charlie said, its a radiator and part of the auto recirculation system of an E61. Personally, I think coffee brew temp is more important than steam pressure (just ask wbroadhead) and would experiment with the machines PID steam temp till I got the desired coffee brew water temp for the beans you’re using and then live with the resultant steam pressure, which should surely be adequate.

                    The default boiler temp for the Technika V Profi PID is 120C which yields about 1-1.25 bar. From their user manual: The PID control of your TECHNIKA V Profi PID allows you to regulate the steam temperature and thus the boiler pressure for steaming milk. The steaming temperature is factory pre-set to 120°C (248°F). Inherent to the design of the machine, when modifying the steaming temperature, not only the boiler pressure but also the extraction temperature of the coffee changes.


                    Per ECM.. .. The PID temp sensor is located at the steam boiler, there is no temp measurement at the group head or Hx. The table below indicates the set steam temperatures and the resulting “expected” extraction temperatures according to a measurement series with consistent parameters. At the time of coffee extraction, the machine has been on for 20-30 minutes.
                    This table should only be used as a general guidance. Please note that the temperature values indicated in the table may differ from the actual temperature values due to variables such as ambient temperature, time of use of the machine since it has been switched on, extraction time of the coffee, possible lime residues etc. This is where the properties of a Hx machine come into play. You can approximate and calculate what the coffee water temp will or should be but you won’t know for sure without a way to measure it.
                    Technically, the boiler temperature can be set between 80° and 128°C (between 176°F and 262°F). In the table, only the recommended boiler temperature interval from 120 to 124°C (from 248 to 255,2°F) is indicated.

                    Boiler temperature at the measuring point/display ° C 120,0 121,0 122,0 123,0 124,0
                    Extraction temperature at the brew group ° C 93,4 93,9 94,8 95,5 96,2

                    Here’s a video, maybe you have already watched it, where Espresso TV is at ECM near Heidelberg as they reveal the new [COLOR=var(--ytd-video-primary-info-renderer-title-color, var(--yt-spec-text-primary))]ECM Technika V Profi PID this past June. If you pay attention to the timeline, you will see the machine spitting/sputtering at the [/COLOR]2:37 mark. The machine has been on for a while but not being used so that gave time for everything to heat up. While we don’t know the temp of the water coming out of the group head, my experience is 93C doesn’t spit and sputter. You will also notice a short flush done at 7:54. Ok, this short flush may be done via habit but I personally believe its good practice on a Hx machine for reasons stated above. No one is going to take constant note of how long the machine has been sitting between extractions, they are just going to use it.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFOxjpgpx14

                    This new ECM Technika V Profi PID machine looks to be a fantastic Hx machine and should serve you quite well. Its one of the closest Hx machines to a no cooling flush as you will get.






                    Attached Files

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sleeprequired View Post
                      hi Charlie, quick question, is the ECM Technika V one such machine? I’m looking into coffee machines and grinders now and you seem to know your stuff
                      It is .

                      However, if you'd like a specific brew temperature at a certain (say higher) steam pressure then that's where a HX calibration may help

                      charlie

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Martino View Post
                        Charlie's explanation is correct and note his last sentence/caveat. I found wbroadhead’s post quite interesting and believe it demonstrates what I will say here.

                        There's no reliable/repeatable way to know what the coffee brew water temp is on a Hx machine without some sort of measurement/gauge because even with a PID controlled Hx machine, such as the new ECM Technika V Profi with PID, the temp setting and monitoring of its temp is for the steam boiler, not the coffee brew water. As you adjust the steam boiler temp in an attempt to raise or lower the steam pressure the water temp inside the Hx (your coffee water) raises or lowers as well, it has to by design. Reference ECM's chart below to see ECM’s correlated temps, their chart is derived from their machine design. The typical brass ECM E61 group head weighs 3.6kg. That sucker is a huge mass and as Charlie said, its a radiator and part of the auto recirculation system of an E61. Personally, I think coffee brew temp is more important than steam pressure (just ask wbroadhead) and would experiment with the machines PID steam temp till I got the desired coffee brew water temp for the beans you’re using and then live with the resultant steam pressure, which should surely be adequate.

                        The default boiler temp for the Technika V Profi PID is 120C which yields about 1-1.25 bar. From their user manual: The PID control of your TECHNIKA V Profi PID allows you to regulate the steam temperature and thus the boiler pressure for steaming milk. The steaming temperature is factory pre-set to 120°C (248°F). Inherent to the design of the machine, when modifying the steaming temperature, not only the boiler pressure but also the extraction temperature of the coffee changes.


                        Per ECM.. .. The PID temp sensor is located at the steam boiler, there is no temp measurement at the group head or Hx. The table below indicates the set steam temperatures and the resulting “expected” extraction temperatures according to a measurement series with consistent parameters. At the time of coffee extraction, the machine has been on for 20-30 minutes.
                        This table should only be used as a general guidance. Please note that the temperature values indicated in the table may differ from the actual temperature values due to variables such as ambient temperature, time of use of the machine since it has been switched on, extraction time of the coffee, possible lime residues etc. This is where the properties of a Hx machine come into play. You can approximate and calculate what the coffee water temp will or should be but you won’t know for sure without a way to measure it.
                        Technically, the boiler temperature can be set between 80° and 128°C (between 176°F and 262°F). In the table, only the recommended boiler temperature interval from 120 to 124°C (from 248 to 255,2°F) is indicated.

                        Boiler temperature at the measuring point/display ° C 120,0 121,0 122,0 123,0 124,0
                        Extraction temperature at the brew group ° C 93,4 93,9 94,8 95,5 96,2

                        Here’s a video, maybe you have already watched it, where Espresso TV is at ECM near Heidelberg as they reveal the new [COLOR=var(--ytd-video-primary-info-renderer-title-color, var(--yt-spec-text-primary))]ECM Technika V Profi PID this past June. If you pay attention to the timeline, you will see the machine spitting/sputtering at the [/COLOR]2:37 mark. The machine has been on for a while but not being used so that gave time for everything to heat up. While we don’t know the temp of the water coming out of the group head, my experience is 93C doesn’t spit and sputter. You will also notice a short flush done at 7:54. Ok, this short flush may be done via habit but I personally believe its good practice on a Hx machine for reasons stated above. No one is going to take constant note of how long the machine has been sitting between extractions, they are just going to use it.

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFOxjpgpx14

                        This new ECM Technika V Profi PID machine looks to be a fantastic Hx machine and should serve you quite well. Its one of the closest Hx machines to a no cooling flush as you will get.






                        wow that’s a truly comprehensive reply. Hmmm I’m planning to automatically turn my machine on every morning and it seems if I forget to purge I’ll waste/burn coffee/time. I see what you’re getting at thank you for your input.

                        im learning...

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JetBlack_Espresso View Post
                          It is .

                          However, if you'd like a specific brew temperature at a certain (say higher) steam pressure then that's where a HX calibration may help

                          charlie
                          just saw this thanks Charlie. So this will mitigate the differences between the double boiler and the Hx? It does bring the unit $250 closer to the dual boiler though...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            There are a few ways you can get a quasi handle on a Hx coffee water brew temp. The Hx Calibration kit, just using the manufacturers cross ref chart (like the ECM one), experimentation and/or you can install a digital thermometer into the E61 group head. Once such thermometer is the Vidastech E61 Group Head Thermometer -https://www.amazon.com.au/Vidastech-...0624931&sr=8-1

                            You can read a few posts on this here - https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...roup-head.html

                            Keep in mind, its not the end of the world if you forget to do a cooling flush, buy a good machine and while you may notice a slightly different coffee flavor if you forget, it will probably still be drinkable and who knows, you may not even notice a flavor diff on the ECM Technika V Profi PID. No matter which technique you use, out of the above, in reality, you will turn the machine on in the morning and it will probably stay on for long periods of time during the day, especially on the weekend. You will not want to wait for it to heat up when you're in the mood for a coffee so you will leave it on. You will not know for sure when the machine has reached equilibrium and you'll be busy having a life so its doubtful you will pay attention to all the variables that come into play for its coffee water temp. You will probably get into the habit of doing a quick cooling flush and not even think much about it. We form habits over time.

                            The ECM you are looking at has a PID that also allows you to set the number of minutes of non use before it goes in standby mode. I have this on mine as well so I just have the machine turn on via an electronic timer in the morning, its up to temp when we're out of bed, I make our coffee's, about an hour later I make another set of coffee's and then let the machine go into standby mode till early afternoon when I use it again. The timer turns it off at a certain time or I can use my phone to turn it on and off at will. If the machine goes into standby mode, the PID display will tell you that and you will see the boiler pressure gauge at near zero. If at that time you want a coffee, you will power cycle the machine, it will restart the boiler and you will need to wait for it to come back to temp, doesn't take long and the PID display will tell you when the steam boiler is back to temp and if you have a thermometer in your E61, that will tell you as well.

                            If you are trying to fit a machine and a grinder into a set budget, a Hx type machine will help over a Dual Boiler. I think one of the points made in the coffee snob link above is that people use the E61 thermometer to get an understanding of their machine, how long it takes to recover the temp after a brew, what the temp can get up to when letting the machine sit for a while, etc. Once they learn the characteristics of their machine, they set their process. If the variability in brew water temp is slight, you may not worry if you forget a cooling flush.

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