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  • FNQ
    replied
    sorry crazyhawkins, my addled brain misconstrued your meaning. Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • crazyhakins
    replied
    Originally posted by FNQ View Post
    Sorry to G Funk for not assisting in your choice . Crazyhakins - i don't agree with your R&D comment. A company makes a product, puts out some guidelines and can reasonably expect that the consumer will use the machine as it was fit for purpose. If it isn;t fit for purpose then sure , whinge whine and ask for replacement and money back but if your misuse of the machine has contributed to its demise then you don't have much of a case. If i may use a car analogy; I go into my dealer demanding a new engine, as the one in my car seized after only 3 years and 100 000kms. They ask did i use the specified oil at regular intervals, and i replied i thought the oil cap was sealed for freshness. - (okay i may have exaggerated this for comedic effect) What i see in this initial OP question, is the conundrum where this price point is - it is not throw away cheap but even spending good money does not guarantee quality. -so again sorry no help to GFunk.
    FNQ, what exactly are you disagreeing with? I agree with what you just said? Aren’t we saying the same thing? I’m not saying a company has to R&D how a customer might misuse their product (although they should). They should already be somewhat clear on what the average consumer is capable of and aim it at that. There’s no point putting a product out there and having a maintenance schedule that’s beyond the average user. In an attempt to make machines ‘easy to use’ and ‘feature rich’ consumer machines have a whole heap of electronics that increase the risk of failure.

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  • Caffeinator
    replied
    Originally posted by FNQ View Post
    i don't agree with your R&D comment. A company makes a product, puts out some guidelines and can reasonably expect that the consumer will use the machine as it was fit for purpose.
    Agreed.... Nevertheless, planned obsolescence keeps the appliance companies in bacon.

    Leave a comment:


  • FNQ
    replied
    Originally posted by crazyhakins View Post
    The average consumer isn’t buying their machine based on the possibility they’ll get a new one if it breaks. They’re hoping it works for a long time. The fallibility of machines is on the company that makes them. Part of R&D should be anticipating how the consumer uses it.

    Sorry to G Funk for not assisting in your choice .

    Crazyhakins - i don't agree with your R&D comment. A company makes a product, puts out some guidelines and can reasonably expect that the consumer will use the machine as it was fit for purpose. If it isn;t fit for purpose then sure , whinge whine and ask for replacement and money back but if your misuse of the machine has contributed to its demise then you don't have much of a case. If i may use a car analogy; I go into my dealer demanding a new engine, as the one in my car seized after only 3 years and 100 000kms. They ask did i use the specified oil at regular intervals, and i replied i thought the oil cap was sealed for freshness. - (okay i may have exaggerated this for comedic effect)

    What i see in this initial OP question, is the conundrum where this price point is - it is not throw away cheap but even spending good money does not guarantee quality. -so again sorry no help to GFunk.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazyhakins
    replied
    Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
    This is one of the parts that annoys me. They can't put proper care instructions in because almost no one would follow them. They'd perhaps have an easier time of denying warranty claims, but once it got out that you actually had to do stuff to Breville machines, but e.g. Sunbeam still only said to do the bare minimum, people would flock to Sunbeam, or whatever brand has the least maintenance required. Not that most people do what's in the manual now, My in-laws bought a 920 because their Saeco VV (over 20 years old) was starting to show signs the end was near, the 920 was on sale, and they know how much I like mine. I tried to explain my cleaning and maintenance routines to them. Got shut down almost immediately and was told they wouldn't be doing all that (I think I'd only gotten up to flushing the group after pulling a shot, yes after every shot, yes you push the button again twice, yes every time, no it only takes a second, push push and that's it, too much to remember ok). They literally never did any maintenance on the VV, filled up the water tank and emptied the drip tray, for 20 odd years. Somehow the coffee at their house has gotten worse since they got the 920. I used to chance it if I needed the caffeine, I think I've had 2 coffees since they upgraded. Part of me wonders if people paid $2-3k for them if they'd be willing to look after them properly. Maybe they should release a line of "long life coffee machines" where the only difference is they up the price by 200% and include proper care instructions. pcrussell50 has it fairly comprehensivly covered on HB.
    The average consumer isn’t buying their machine based on the possibility they’ll get a new one if it breaks. They’re hoping it works for a long time. The fallibility of machines is on the company that makes them. Part of R&D should be anticipating how the consumer uses it.

    Leave a comment:


  • level3ninja
    replied
    Originally posted by crazyhakins View Post
    They do what the manual says and they still break.
    This is one of the parts that annoys me. They can't put proper care instructions in because almost no one would follow them. They'd perhaps have an easier time of denying warranty claims, but once it got out that you actually had to do stuff to Breville machines, but e.g. Sunbeam still only said to do the bare minimum, people would flock to Sunbeam, or whatever brand has the least maintenance required. Not that most people do what's in the manual now,

    My in-laws bought a 920 because their Saeco VV (over 20 years old) was starting to show signs the end was near, the 920 was on sale, and they know how much I like mine. I tried to explain my cleaning and maintenance routines to them. Got shut down almost immediately and was told they wouldn't be doing all that (I think I'd only gotten up to flushing the group after pulling a shot, yes after every shot, yes you push the button again twice, yes every time, no it only takes a second, push push and that's it, too much to remember ok). They literally never did any maintenance on the VV, filled up the water tank and emptied the drip tray, for 20 odd years. Somehow the coffee at their house has gotten worse since they got the 920. I used to chance it if I needed the caffeine, I think I've had 2 coffees since they upgraded.

    Part of me wonders if people paid $2-3k for them if they'd be willing to look after them properly. Maybe they should release a line of "long life coffee machines" where the only difference is they up the price by 200% and include proper care instructions. pcrussell50 has it fairly comprehensivly covered on HB.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    commented on 's reply
    "Breville 820"
    Do you mean the BES-920 machine Luca?
    The only Breville unit I can find with '820' included in its nomenclature is their espresso grinder.

  • crazyhakins
    replied
    Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
    Don’t let shiny panels fool you into thinking that the internals are well designed and top spec. Has anyone ever seen inside something like a Quickmill Andreja from the 2000s? Breville coffee machines are like a catch-22 - the reason they often don’t last as long as they could is because of the people that they are mostly sold to. Look after them and feed them good water and they have as much opportunity as many other coffee machines of lasting many years.
    Equally true of prosumer machines - feed them hard water and they fail in 2 years. Breville and Sunbeam put filters in their machines, doesn’t stop them from being returned in droves. I’d love to see the stats on warranty returns. My folks have had breville and sunbeam and they go through a machine a year on average. They do what the manual says and they still break.

    Leave a comment:


  • luca
    replied
    I bought a refurb breville for $600, failed after 3 months; lots of steam leaking and hissing and I thought "well this is probably a $50 replacement of a vacuum breaker; I'll just call Breville and they'll sort me out". I called them and they basically said sorry, can't help you, we don't service our own machines, we can refer you to an authorised appliance repair centre. I needed it done quickly, so I went to see them. They said the boiler had developed a leak and the entire boiler had to be replaced, which was something that I'm deeply sceptical of to this day, at the cost of like another $600, but by that stage I was over a barrel, so I forked it over. Then the exact same steam leak reoccurred just out of the repair warranty period, so I was thoroughly disgusted by the whole experience that I cut my losses and bought a vesuvius from Chris at talk coffee, since he's a straight shooter and he's right next to Rick, the coffee machinist, so there's a whole coffee engineering brains trust there's that's pretty unbeatable support. So I most definitely am no fan of Breville's durability or lack of customer service.

    Definitely a question of priorities. Unfortunately, though I really hate to say it, I think that the Breville probably makes coffee that's at least on par with most e61 boxes, and I suspect probably a bit better than most. But only when, if, and for so long as it works.

    Leave a comment:


  • LeroyC
    replied
    Don’t let shiny panels fool you into thinking that the internals are well designed and top spec. Has anyone ever seen inside something like a Quickmill Andreja from the 2000s? Breville coffee machines are like a catch-22 - the reason they often don’t last as long as they could is because of the people that they are mostly sold to. Look after them and feed them good water and they have as much opportunity as many other coffee machines of lasting many years.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazyhakins
    replied
    Exactly. All those intricate electronics just begging to fail. You might not pay as much in the outlay, but you’ll make up for it in parts and days off work pulling your machine apart and trying to fix it. I made a 6910 last 10 years but that was not without replacing lost parts on the machine, and the only reason I did it was because I had a spare machine for parts I’d got for free. I’m not saying a 6910 and an 820 are the same, but there is a big and very noticeable jump up when going from a consumer machine to a prosumer one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Caffeinator
    replied
    Would I buy a Breville over a Silvia? Yup. Probably would- especially if there was more than one user.

    Breville is manufactured to a price point. Word was that in the beginning when they were selling them for $1500, they were landing them at $300 and you can see how when you open one up. These days, they sell at closer to their true value.

    If you only have Breville money, yeah sure and if you manage 3 or more years, you're a winner. If you want something to last for 10, 20 or more years, don't buy landfill.

    Grinder? Absolutely. The best you can afford. You put diesel in a Lambo and it's guaranteed to run like crap.

    Leave a comment:


  • luca
    replied
    This is not going to be a popular opinion at all, but I'd fall out of my chair if any of the prosumer e61 box machines could produce a better coffee than the Breville 820, which you can pick up for like $900 from a department store. The Breville will probably have less powerful steam and look less cool, though maybe a better tip than many e61 boxes, plus it has a stack of sensible, user-friendly features that e61 boxes lack, like an actively heated group for quick heatup and the ability to see than tank water level from the front. I bought one second hand and it had utter garbage durability, trying to get it serviced was a nightmare and expensive, so I ultimately turfed it and moved on to a Vesuvius e61 box, and I used the pressure profiling features. But if you're in the market to spend $2.5k, you could nearly buy 3 of these things for the price of 1 of most e61 boxes. They might be more durable, but they'll be less user friendly and they probably won't make better coffee.

    And, for another unpopular opinion, you could take the savings and put them towards buying a grinder that costs many multiples more than the Breville.

    Leave a comment:


  • daledugahole
    replied
    Just been through a similar exercise Gfunk. Literally gave myself a headache going around in circles researching all the options & listening to all the advice.

    I had a Vibiemme Jnr that packed it in after 8yrs & some shoddy servicing (or lack there of as it may appear) and have taken delivery of a Izzo Vivi PID this last month. My usage sounds fairly similar to yours. Can't speak of the other options mentioned & it might just be a tad over your budget you mentioned, but I'll my detail observations.

    PRO's (IMO) - Aesthetics, it's a great looking machine, empty reservoir alarm, shot timer built in (it's actually really handy), 15min heat up time is AWESOME!!, PID although I'm pretty happy with the setting it's been bench tested so haven't touched it. Size - it doesn't have a huge footprint like other machines making it kitchen friendly. Comes with a single and dbl portafiller and a reasonable metal tamper (not a plastic one that goes straight in the bin). Steam wand is cool touch and super easy to use (and clean).... + heaps of steam & do it as the shot is pouring. Cup warmer is a decent size for the machine, easily fits 4 cups. E61 group head is high enough to allow most tall cups or glasses to fit under.

    CONS that I've observed since owning - Doesn't feel as quite heavy duty on the outside as the VBM, which was a beast. Water reservoir is smaller than the VBM & I do notice it. I haven't been a fan of the supplied baskets so have already retired them for 17-19gm & 20-22gm Pullman precision ones + bought a naked portafiller with a triple basket. Waste water/shot tray thing is fairly small, but very easy to remove and rinse. Not sure I'm pulling as consistent and tasty shots as my VBM just yet.... but I'm real close.

    Good luck . At around your budget you'll have lots of great options, so keen to hear where you end up ?

    Leave a comment:


  • GFunk
    replied
    Thanks for sharing your experience with the Expobar. A few repairs over that time period doesn’t bother me much, as long as the parts are relatively easy to come by. I’ve replaced a number of parts on my Silvia myself over the years, so user serviceable is good for me.

    Leave a comment:

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