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From Moka Pot to home espresso - Advice please!

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  • originalkoala
    replied
    I've recently moved from pour over and infusion styles using the TrinityOne, to espresso using Wega Wmini.
    I'll be totally upfront and say prepare yourself for some terrible coffee as you start to learn the machine and workflow.
    I've learned a lot about the intricacies that would have influenced my choice had I known them.
    Don't rule out a good second hand machine. You'll save a lot of money on an E61 style by going used, and they are pretty hardy things so they last years. The savings would probably cover a lot of service and repairs too ?

    The heat up time is somewhat annoying, and it means I can't impulsively have an espresso at any time. You can eleviate this a little with a smart plug so that you can turn it on whilst away from home, or just yell at Google to "turn on coffee". Frothing milk for a non-coffee drink (chai, hot choc etc.) would also require heat up of the entire machine which can be 30+ minutes. If this would sway you, prioritise heat up time in your equation.

    Don't skimp on the grinder!

    Don't let the idea of frothing milk and pulling a shot at the same time play too much into your thinking. I make back-to-back coffees every morning, and there's enough action doing one thing at a time, that the thought of saving 20 seconds of frothing time doesn't really matter anymore hahaha

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  • tommy888
    replied
    Reference on Sydney Water and espresso.
    https://www.beanscenemag.com.au/seve...espresso-myth/

    Leave a comment:


  • tommy888
    replied
    Sydney Water have a monitoring website where you can enter your address and it tells you your water hardness.

    Most of Sydney the water is soft, which is good for coffee machines.

    go here, select appliances and then enter your address.

    https://www.sydneywater.com.au/water...-analysis.html

    as for machines, I recently settled on my first and I chose a profitec 300. For a few reasons on reading a large number of espresso machine reviews.

    the profitec has:

    fast heat up time. Essential for me, I wanted to avoid the extra wait on many e61 machines

    stable temperature. Perhaps not as good as a heated up e61 but nevertheless reported as really good.

    dead simple to use. I thought long and hard about getting a really manual machine, perhaps even a lever to try and get that “god shot” and decided what I really wanted is just consistently nice espresso. I read an e61 might be more forgiving here, but the trade off on start up time and extra cost just dissuaded me.

    dual boiler - my partner drinks flat whites and mochas. If I’m spending a bit of money on coffee, it’s important she can drink it too.

    (I drink double espressos mainly)

    After using it for a while I’m happy to let you know what my experiences end up being.

    oh and I like how Profitec go on about all their machines being handmade in Germany. That’s comforting and it’s good to know they are meant to be easy to service.

    the other machine I thought about was a top of the line Breville Dual Boiler. But I wanted something that looked as nice as the coffee it makes ??

    matching grinder I’m still researching. I have an average one and the machine will demand something better I’m sure!
    Last edited by tommy888; 5 April 2022, 08:45 PM.

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  • Erimus
    replied
    Originally posted by Bohne View Post

    Thanks for the reminder, I'm aware to only use filtered water - is water from a brita jug fine? Would you recommend getting a different filter? I'm in Sydney btw

    BWT is superior to Brita and worth considering.

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  • level3ninja
    replied
    Originally posted by Bohne View Post

    Thanks for the reminder, I'm aware to only use filtered water - is water from a brita jug fine? Would you recommend getting a different filter? I'm in Sydney btw
    Brita jug is not ok. They work largely on taste but your machine will need more. An under the sink Brita "C150" for brass or copper boilers or a "C150 Finest" for stainless steel boilers will be what you need. I have a C150 Finest that runs to a little tap from which I top up the water tank in my machine.

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  • Bohne
    replied
    Originally posted by level3ninja View Post

    Honestly I've never had the urge to delve long into the variations of an aged technology that exists only to meet budgetary constraints.
    Hehe, fair enough, I guess people with budgetary constraints can get caught up in those machines. To be fair, you mainly find HXs out there, big range in price, some cost more than solid double boilers. And constantly new expensive HX's coming out, while the dual boiler market doesn't see many new models at all? Surely we could be seeing more affordable DB's, like the Profitec Pro 300.

    Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
    Why do you imagine this? Because of the market share? The truth is that 99% of people with PID machines don't adjust the temperature, so a properly adjusted Hx would probably work just as well for them. Most people have preferences around coffee roast levels and they stick to them. Most people also manipulate variables other than temperature. It is the least fiddled with by far (no reason for that though)
    Yes, I assumed because of the large market share, that it's a good/proven technology. Also most site sponsors recommended them to me over single and double boilers, saying that they can produce very good espresso.
    Makes sense that if you drink one type of bean/roast level you wouldn't change temperature much. Are you yourself adjusting temps for different roast levels?

    Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
    The point isn't that Hx machines can't make excellent coffee, but is that they aren't as flexible on temperature. So if the temperature output of a given Hx suits a particular bean then there is no reason it wouldn't be as good as from a dedicated boiler with PID.
    Okay, I'm starting to understand the topic better. It seems like you still have some control over brew temp with a PID on a HX - but it's not very precise, and not linear. Like explained in this video. Also annoyingly, you'd always have to convert the number on your PID into what would actually come out the brew head, instead of simply taking what's on the PID display as the actual temp.

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  • Bohne
    replied
    Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
    Also, please make sure you have considered what is required by way of water filtration for any machine you buy relative to the water where you live
    Thanks for the reminder, I'm aware to only use filtered water - is water from a brita jug fine? Would you recommend getting a different filter? I'm in Sydney btw

    Leave a comment:


  • level3ninja
    replied
    Also, please make sure you have considered what is required by way of water filtration for any machine you buy relative to the water where you live

    Leave a comment:


  • level3ninja
    replied
    Originally posted by Bohne View Post
    Are there certain HX technologies that are regarded as better than others? i.e. thermosyphon vs electrically heated brew group vs brass plate?
    Honestly I've never had the urge to delve long into the variations of an aged technology that exists only to meet budgetary constraints.

    And obviously there is a huge market of HX machines out there, I imagine a lot of them make really good espresso as well, with beans of different roasting levels?
    Why do you imagine this? Because of the market share? The truth is that 99% of people with PID machines don't adjust the temperature, so a properly adjusted Hx would probably work just as well for them. Most people have preferences around coffee roast levels and they stick to them. Most people also manipulate variables other than temperature. It is the least fiddled with by far (no reason for that though)

    I mean, would I even be able to taste the difference between black coffee from a good HX and from a temp-controlled SBDU/DB?
    The point isn't that Hx machines can't make excellent coffee, but is that they aren't as flexible on temperature. So if the temperature output of a given Hx suits a particular bean then there is no reason it wouldn't be as good as from a dedicated boiler with PID.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bohne
    replied
    Thanks for the machine recommendations - I like the Elizabeth V3

    I've been doing some reading up on HX technology, some entertaining threads here ?
    I think I understand the limitations of them managing a stable brew temp a lot better. Are there certain HX technologies that are regarded as better than others? i.e. thermosyphon vs electrically heated brew group vs brass plate?

    And obviously there is a huge market of HX machines out there, I imagine a lot of them make really good espresso as well, with beans of different roasting levels? I mean, would I even be able to taste the difference between black coffee from a good HX and from a temp-controlled SBDU/DB?

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  • level3ninja
    replied
    Originally posted by Bohne View Post
    so essentially any machine with an E61 brew group has that issue, and the water temp when it reaches the coffee, even PID-controlled with a double boiler is not quite what you set it at?
    Is ring group then much better for temperature stability, like the Profitec Pro 300 has?
    No, only Hx machines. The group head siphon on a DB machine comes from the brew boiler, so it's the right temperature.

    So rather a ECM Classika PID, or a used Profitec Pro 300 (which I never see here) would be best for black coffee?
    The Classika PID will be excellent. Something like a Lelit Victoria https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/...lelit-victoria or Lelit Elizabeth V3 https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/...elit-elizabeth would also do very well

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  • Bohne
    replied
    but once it enters the group head the temperature of the group will have a significant effect on the temperature of the water reaching the beans (e.g. in an E61 the group is approx 4kg of brass)
    so essentially any machine with an E61 brew group has that issue, and the water temp when it reaches the coffee, even PID-controlled with a double boiler is not quite what you set it at?
    Is ring group then much better for temperature stability, like the Profitec Pro 300 has?

    I was not planning on buying a high-end DB as a first machine ?

    So rather a ECM Classika PID, or a used Profitec Pro 300 (which I never see here) would be best for black coffee?

    FYI light roasts typically require a higher temp not lower
    Thanks, I never knew which was higher and which lower ?

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  • level3ninja
    replied
    Simply by the nature if how Hx machines work, getting a consistent temperature out of them is more down to the design than the boiler temperature. You might be able to get a consistent and settable by calculation temperature coming out the Hx, but once it enters the group head the temperature of the group will have a significant effect on the temperature of the water reaching the beans (e.g. in an E61 the group is approx 4kg of brass). The reverse flow of the Hx that heats the group by convection when you're not pulling a shot is mechanically fixed, though often adjustable by replacing the gicular orifice, though that's a job for a technician and not one you'll want to do regularly. The group thermal mass also causes the shot temperature to change over the course of the shot. All in all, yes you can do most things with a Hx you can do with other things, but you're at the mercy of its mechanicallimitations and you'll probably have to learn some arcane rituals to get the tempersture you want.

    FYI light roasts typically require a higher temp not lower

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  • Bohne
    replied
    Originally posted by tompoland View Post
    Maybe ask our sponsors for a recommendation/quote: https://coffeesnobs.com.au/SponsorQuotes
    Thank you - I filled out the quote form and already had some replies!

    The recommendations so far were Bellezza Chiara and Rocket Appartemento or Profitec Pro 300


    If you only drink black and want to try out lots of different beans, I would steer clear of Hx machines. A dedicated boiler (i.e. SBDU or DB) with a PID is a must for that.
    thanks for your input ninja! I've heard that it's really important to control temp with a PID when drinking a variety of beans, especially light roasts that you want to brew at lower temperature?

    Re: PID on HX I've seen mixed messages; some saying there's actually no point, because you're not controlling brew temp. Others promoting the thermal stability of a PID on a HX and some machines state precise conversions from boiler to brew temp, where changing the boiler temp by 1 degree results in half a degree brew temp change. So even on on say a Bellezza Chiara I couldn't reliably control brew temp with the PID on it?

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  • level3ninja
    replied
    If you only drink black and want to try out lots of different beans, I would steer clear of Hx machines. A dedicated boiler (i.e. SBDU or DB) with a PID is a must for that.

    Leave a comment:

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