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Will I Regret Upgrade to E61/HX?

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  • Will I Regret Upgrade to E61/HX?

    Hey All,

    In a bit of a conundrum in regards to upgrading from my current basic setup (Lelit Anita Combi - PL042TEMD). It's served my wife and I well for the last 7 years although its been in and out of the workshop for various repairs almost every year for the last few. Wife doesn't want to spend any more money repairing it and feels its time to move onto something new.

    Pre COVID it was just the two of us drinking 2 - 4 milk based drinks a day on the weekend to post COVID to now making 2 - 3 milk based drinks in the morning daily plus another 4 - 6 throughout the day depending upon mood and whether in-laws are around. We always drink milk based drinks (although will have the odd espresso here or there), usually medium/dark roasts and buy fresh beans from our local roaster as we require. I've never played with the PID nor explored light, single origin varieties or have multiple roasts going at once, etc.

    We bought the PID version of our machine (as opposed to the Rancilio Silvia + Grinder which was popular at the time) as I didn't want to temperature surf and we liked the convenience of a all-in-one solution. I think we make pretty good drinks, pretty consistently but don't have anything to compare that to.

    Which brings us to now and where we go from here. I had a good chat with one of the site sponsors last week whom recommended a HX machine would well suit our purposes, which I'm OK (with until I started reading online all the challengers with a HX machine, although, depending on whom and where you read, there's a vast difference of opinion, particularly given the newer/modern HX machines available (i.e. no cooling flushes, more temperature stable, etc.).

    Similarly, we've never owned an E61. Certainly, I love the look of those machines and warm-up times aren't necessarily a problem for us (we usually turn the machine on when we get up, leave it for a while, the make our drinks) but again, whilst a popular/stable design that's stood the test of time, is temperature stability really an issue as opposed to my little saturated/ring group I have now? Will I have to temperature surf all day to make a good drink?

    We're looking for smaller footprint style machines and the machine's we were interested in were:

    HX:
    - Lelit Mara X
    - Profitec Pro 400

    DB:
    - Lelit Elizabeth
    - Profitec Pro 300

    Obviously we'd need a new grinder so was thinking pairing with either a Eureka Mignon Specialita or XL. Was considering the Niche Zero also but as above, don't think the workflow would suit us, nor do we change out beans all that much. The wife also has to be able to use all the equipment easily.

    So I guess in a nutshell, I'm wondering:

    1. Should everybody own an E61 once in their life;
    2. Will I regret buying a HX over a small Dual Boiler.
    3. Will I forever be getting inconsistent shots/tastes from a HX setup.
    4. Will I get much better coffee and overall experience from such an upgrade.

    What we need:

    1. Reliability/Longevity.
    2. Ability to make drinks quickly and back-to-back. Takes forever on our current setup!
    3. Ease of Use.
    4. Serviceability and Cost of.

    Sorry if my post is TLDR but like anything, its a serious investment that I don't want to regret nor do we want to get that dreaded upgraditis bug, so seeking a bit of validation!

    Cheers

  • #2


    I went from a DeLonghi Icona I picked up in Target cheap to an HX, which is serving us very well, and pretty quickly. That was 7 or so years ago and I have never regretted it, that said I am ready for an upgrade/change but I still look at it every morning and smile.
    We plan on going the dual boiler route but am unsure what we really want at this stage.

    Comment


    • #3
      okay... I'll be that guy...
      Dual Boiler, PID controlled, super temp stable, easy to use and make drinks back to back, easy to service and maintain yourself (if you are inclined)....

      Step up, Breville Dual Boiler.

      not the best looking machine sure and not the smallest thing around though..

      Comment


      • Budgiesmuggler
        Budgiesmuggler commented
        Editing a comment
        A HX is not an end-game machine. So factor in future upgrade itis.

        Breville DB may win on that basis - does what you need now, more functionality than those other machines you’re looking at.

    • #4
      Hi Schmick, I have had a E61 HX for over 4 years, Previously a Breville for years.
      My Wife and I enjoy milk based drinks and make normally 3 single and 3 double coffees a day. Go through 2kg of beans in just under 2 weeks.
      The VBM junior HX I have is continuing to serve us well, and was certainly a step up on anything I previously had used. Like you I do not change temp settings, but have experimented with a wide range of Single Origin and Blended Beans in the past 4 years. Throughout this time I have never felt I made the wrong decision on buying an HX machine.
      I service it myself, with a water backwash after each session, chemical backwash each month and a relube of the E61 seals and cam etc at this time. This only takes about 30 minutes max at the beginning of each month. It has been very reliable, with the only glitch being a faulty over temp sensor on the water pump which I replaced for less than $15.
      Has only been fed on filtered water and this has certainly contributed to the ongoing good health of the internals of the machine. I have not and do not expect to ever have to chemically descale the internals of this machine.
      It has adequate steam power, a 1.8litre boiler rather than 1.45 would have helped in this area but I wanted a small footprint HX so something had to give up something.
      I have recently fitted a Coffee Sensor Flow Controller to the E61 grouphead and this has opened up a whole new area to experiment in.
      I am constantly complimented on how good our coffee is by visiting friends and our Son who is really into coffee and lives in a very Hip inner city Brisbane suburb prefers my coffee over anything he can buy. I will take this as a compliment on The Machine, Beans, Grinder, Water and Myself in no particular order. Also a sad indication on many inferior Cafes and Espresso bars.
      I expect this machine to last many more years and when it does if ever become uneconomical to repair I may trade up to a Dual Boiler. This is not on my radar anytime soon.
      A Breville DB is a great Consumer machine but will not last as long as a good Prosumer HX in my opinion. There are many good ones out there for you to try. Just remember to purchase a good grinder at the same time as the Espresso machine, pay more for the Grinder than you budgeted for and you will not be disappointed.
      Cheers
      Maurice

      Comment


      • steiny555
        steiny555 commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi Birkin7, I just live essentially down the road from you in Mount Gravatt, so assumable similar regular water quality. Do you mind me asking what type of water filtration system you use? I've recently bought a nice HX machine that I'd like to look after from the start.
        Thanks,
        Paul

    • #5
      Hi schmick23 I was in a similar but slightly different situation. I had a Rocket Appartamento HX machine, had a few years but was getting inconsistent shots from it. Also the steam power was a bit ordinary. This machine does not have PID temp control. I make 4-5 milk based drinks a day.

      I upgraded to a Profitec 600 DB machine with PID. I am getting very consistent shots and excellent silky milk. By far the most consistent machine I have owned. I am making the best coffee I every have, this site has also helped me a lot with great advice from the members.

      If you go for HX, get one with PID. Downside of HX is you set the boiler temp, which then determines the coffee temp. You cannot set both coffee boiler and steam boiler independently. It is a trade off, but that is physics for you. I would say you would get very consistent results with a PID HX machine, with a DB you get even more control as you can set the temp for both boilers separately. There are many people on this site who are very happy with their HX machines. If you can live with this limitation then it will be fine. If you want more control then you need to go DB with PID.

      Check out this review of the 500 at about the 5 min mark.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuci2UFdt4w

      It goes without saying you need fresh beans, good technique and a great water source. Also the grinder does play a big part in the equation. I have the Specialita and very happy with it. I was considering upgrading to the XL, the advice I had from this site was that I probably would not notice the difference in the cup. You would need to get a new grinder to get the most out of your new machine.

      The Profitec 600 and 700 have 2 bar steam power, this has made a big difference for me. I pretty much always get silky milk from this machine. This is pretty much my end machine, I dont see any need to upgrade. I can make back to back drinks, it takes about 30 seconds for the steam to reach full pressure after steaming 300mls. I like the design of 600, it is very solid and little thinks like the pressure valve being vented to the drip tray. I did a write up here of my buying journey from the Rocket to the Profitec, that may help you also.

      Hope this helps.

      Comment


      • #6
        On a DB 600 or 700 isn't the temps measured at the boiler not at the grouphead, same with the HX machines i just installed the E61 grouphead thermometer and tells me the temps which in fact the Technika V pid is very stable temps with the pid on 123 degrees the brew temp after 30min warm up is 87 degrees when grewing a shot goes to 89-90 and very stable compared to my old Mechanika 1V which used to run very hot and you have to do cooling flushes.

        Comment


        • coffeemachine
          coffeemachine commented
          Editing a comment
          Yes, you are right, they measure temp at the boiler not the brew head for both. Most machines have an offset which you can adjust to compensate for ambient temperature. From what I have seen the machine is pretty temp stable. I believe you need to do cooling flushes for HX machines, well I did with my Rocket, not such as issue with DB. I still do a small flush before pulling a shot, more out of habit.

        • EspressoAdventurer
          EspressoAdventurer commented
          Editing a comment
          Yes if your Rocket (HX) was not likely bench tested / setup, maintained OR had the boiler temp dialled up more than required Yes Im sure you prob did. Mine for instance doesn't, hasn't, and won't.
          If it at anytime does Ill know it needs attention.

          There are many models of Rockets out there with many different heater control types.
          Like ANY brand / model HX DB etc, if setup and maintained as they were desgined most Dont need a cooling flush.

          This is more so an 'Internetty' marketing premise / statement than a reality* !

          However good practice means all machines will likely benefit from a short flush prior to pulling a shot, say after a long idle period, to bring fresh oxygenated water forward to the front of the brew path.

          * If it is a reality in your machine take the tip get it serviced / bench tested for Temp setting / stability. Many good techs can and will do this.

      • #7
        I haven't done any cooling flushes with the Technika V and there are lots of videos show that you don't need to do a cooling flush with the latest crop of hx machines ECM nad Profitec as they are very temp stable proven with the Scace device.

        Comment


        • #8
          I've got a 7 year old Rocket HX that doesn't require a cooling flush, mainly because it was bench tested and set up correctly from the start.

          I would suggest looking at getting the second hand Rocket Appartmento that's for sale on here, and then use what you save to buy a really good grinder. If you do decide to upgrade, then you haven't had to invest as much and you'll probably get a decent return.

          Comment


          • IrisGanache
            IrisGanache commented
            Editing a comment
            I have a 7 year old, or thereabouts, Diadema Unico Splendor and I have never had to give it a cooling flush either.

        • #9
          Hi All,

          Firstly, thanks to everybody for your kind replies and taking the time to read my TLDR post!

          Really great information and user experiences. All your advice/experiences were spot on and confirmed what the team at JetBlack_Espresso (site sponsor) talked me through.

          I bit the bullet and purchased a new machine (Profitec Pro 400) and grinder (Eureka Mignon XL). Ultimately, I think I would have been disappointed a little bit if I went with the Elizabeth, albeit another great machine.

          After having a play with the new combo this weekend, I'm really happy with the purchase and the new gear is a real pleasure (and upgrade!) to use, over my old Lelit Combi.

          Having now gone through the process, I can see how easy it is to get carried away. I had to really think about how I would use the machine, budget, bench space, etc. to keep everything in check.

          So far, so good but I'll continue to share my experiences as I get familiar with it all. I'm really loving the lever action and the feel of the solidness of the E61. The coffee itself is also tasting miles above what I was previously making too!

          Once I got everything dialled in, all my reservations about HX/DB vs. Saturated/E61 disappeared!

          Comment


          • JK4
            JK4 commented
            Editing a comment
            Lovely set up. Enjoy

        • #10
          Great setup you will enjoy it!

          Comment

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