Hi Birkin7, I just live essentially down the road from you in Mount Gravatt, so assumable similar regular water quality. Do you mind me asking what type of water filtration system you use? I've recently bought a nice HX machine that I'd like to look after from the start.
Thanks,
Paul
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Will I Regret Upgrade to E61/HX?
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Hi All,
Firstly, thanks to everybody for your kind replies and taking the time to read my TLDR post!
Really great information and user experiences. All your advice/experiences were spot on and confirmed what the team at JetBlack_Espresso (site sponsor) talked me through.
I bit the bullet and purchased a new machine (Profitec Pro 400) and grinder (Eureka Mignon XL). Ultimately, I think I would have been disappointed a little bit if I went with the Elizabeth, albeit another great machine.
After having a play with the new combo this weekend, I'm really happy with the purchase and the new gear is a real pleasure (and upgrade!) to use, over my old Lelit Combi.
Having now gone through the process, I can see how easy it is to get carried away. I had to really think about how I would use the machine, budget, bench space, etc. to keep everything in check.
So far, so good but I'll continue to share my experiences as I get familiar with it all. I'm really loving the lever action and the feel of the solidness of the E61. The coffee itself is also tasting miles above what I was previously making too!
Once I got everything dialled in, all my reservations about HX/DB vs. Saturated/E61 disappeared!
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I have a 7 year old, or thereabouts, Diadema Unico Splendor and I have never had to give it a cooling flush either.
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I've got a 7 year old Rocket HX that doesn't require a cooling flush, mainly because it was bench tested and set up correctly from the start.
I would suggest looking at getting the second hand Rocket Appartmento that's for sale on here, and then use what you save to buy a really good grinder. If you do decide to upgrade, then you haven't had to invest as much and you'll probably get a decent return.
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Yes if your Rocket (HX) was not likely bench tested / setup, maintained OR had the boiler temp dialled up more than required Yes Im sure you prob did. Mine for instance doesn't, hasn't, and won't.
If it at anytime does Ill know it needs attention.
There are many models of Rockets out there with many different heater control types.
Like ANY brand / model HX DB etc, if setup and maintained as they were desgined most Dont need a cooling flush.
This is more so an 'Internetty' marketing premise / statement than a reality* !
However good practice means all machines will likely benefit from a short flush prior to pulling a shot, say after a long idle period, to bring fresh oxygenated water forward to the front of the brew path.
* If it is a reality in your machine take the tip get it serviced / bench tested for Temp setting / stability. Many good techs can and will do this.
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I haven't done any cooling flushes with the Technika V and there are lots of videos show that you don't need to do a cooling flush with the latest crop of hx machines ECM nad Profitec as they are very temp stable proven with the Scace device.
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Yes, you are right, they measure temp at the boiler not the brew head for both. Most machines have an offset which you can adjust to compensate for ambient temperature. From what I have seen the machine is pretty temp stable. I believe you need to do cooling flushes for HX machines, well I did with my Rocket, not such as issue with DB. I still do a small flush before pulling a shot, more out of habit.
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On a DB 600 or 700 isn't the temps measured at the boiler not at the grouphead, same with the HX machines i just installed the E61 grouphead thermometer and tells me the temps which in fact the Technika V pid is very stable temps with the pid on 123 degrees the brew temp after 30min warm up is 87 degrees when grewing a shot goes to 89-90 and very stable compared to my old Mechanika 1V which used to run very hot and you have to do cooling flushes.
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Hi schmick23 I was in a similar but slightly different situation. I had a Rocket Appartamento HX machine, had a few years but was getting inconsistent shots from it. Also the steam power was a bit ordinary. This machine does not have PID temp control. I make 4-5 milk based drinks a day.
I upgraded to a Profitec 600 DB machine with PID. I am getting very consistent shots and excellent silky milk. By far the most consistent machine I have owned. I am making the best coffee I every have, this site has also helped me a lot with great advice from the members.
If you go for HX, get one with PID. Downside of HX is you set the boiler temp, which then determines the coffee temp. You cannot set both coffee boiler and steam boiler independently. It is a trade off, but that is physics for you. I would say you would get very consistent results with a PID HX machine, with a DB you get even more control as you can set the temp for both boilers separately. There are many people on this site who are very happy with their HX machines. If you can live with this limitation then it will be fine. If you want more control then you need to go DB with PID.
Check out this review of the 500 at about the 5 min mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuci2UFdt4w
It goes without saying you need fresh beans, good technique and a great water source. Also the grinder does play a big part in the equation. I have the Specialita and very happy with it. I was considering upgrading to the XL, the advice I had from this site was that I probably would not notice the difference in the cup. You would need to get a new grinder to get the most out of your new machine.
The Profitec 600 and 700 have 2 bar steam power, this has made a big difference for me. I pretty much always get silky milk from this machine. This is pretty much my end machine, I dont see any need to upgrade. I can make back to back drinks, it takes about 30 seconds for the steam to reach full pressure after steaming 300mls. I like the design of 600, it is very solid and little thinks like the pressure valve being vented to the drip tray. I did a write up here of my buying journey from the Rocket to the Profitec, that may help you also.
Hope this helps.
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Hi Schmick, I have had a E61 HX for over 4 years, Previously a Breville for years.
My Wife and I enjoy milk based drinks and make normally 3 single and 3 double coffees a day. Go through 2kg of beans in just under 2 weeks.
The VBM junior HX I have is continuing to serve us well, and was certainly a step up on anything I previously had used. Like you I do not change temp settings, but have experimented with a wide range of Single Origin and Blended Beans in the past 4 years. Throughout this time I have never felt I made the wrong decision on buying an HX machine.
I service it myself, with a water backwash after each session, chemical backwash each month and a relube of the E61 seals and cam etc at this time. This only takes about 30 minutes max at the beginning of each month. It has been very reliable, with the only glitch being a faulty over temp sensor on the water pump which I replaced for less than $15.
Has only been fed on filtered water and this has certainly contributed to the ongoing good health of the internals of the machine. I have not and do not expect to ever have to chemically descale the internals of this machine.
It has adequate steam power, a 1.8litre boiler rather than 1.45 would have helped in this area but I wanted a small footprint HX so something had to give up something.
I have recently fitted a Coffee Sensor Flow Controller to the E61 grouphead and this has opened up a whole new area to experiment in.
I am constantly complimented on how good our coffee is by visiting friends and our Son who is really into coffee and lives in a very Hip inner city Brisbane suburb prefers my coffee over anything he can buy. I will take this as a compliment on The Machine, Beans, Grinder, Water and Myself in no particular order. Also a sad indication on many inferior Cafes and Espresso bars.
I expect this machine to last many more years and when it does if ever become uneconomical to repair I may trade up to a Dual Boiler. This is not on my radar anytime soon.
A Breville DB is a great Consumer machine but will not last as long as a good Prosumer HX in my opinion. There are many good ones out there for you to try. Just remember to purchase a good grinder at the same time as the Espresso machine, pay more for the Grinder than you budgeted for and you will not be disappointed.
Cheers
Maurice
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A HX is not an end-game machine. So factor in future upgrade itis.
Breville DB may win on that basis - does what you need now, more functionality than those other machines you’re looking at.
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okay... I'll be that guy...
Dual Boiler, PID controlled, super temp stable, easy to use and make drinks back to back, easy to service and maintain yourself (if you are inclined)....
Step up, Breville Dual Boiler.
not the best looking machine sure and not the smallest thing around though..
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I went from a DeLonghi Icona I picked up in Target cheap to an HX, which is serving us very well, and pretty quickly. That was 7 or so years ago and I have never regretted it, that said I am ready for an upgrade/change but I still look at it every morning and smile.
We plan on going the dual boiler route but am unsure what we really want at this stage.
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