Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

ECM Mechanika Slim - not getting to temp/pressures. Advice on what to check?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ECM Mechanika Slim - not getting to temp/pressures. Advice on what to check?

    Hello snobs

    About a week ago my ECM Mechanika Slim began an issue. On the initial morning startup the boiler doesn’t get to temperature and sort of stops/idles at a very low temp not enough pressure build up to run the steam or water wands. I can correct this by fiddling with it (turning off/on, running the brew head, pulling the water reservoir and reinstalling (the water reservoir seems to have the best success in this)). Subsequent startups later in the morning have mixed result in whether it gets to temp or not.

    I’ve noticed that when working and in its 15–20 minutes warmup phase, there’s a distinct quiet-to-loud sort of pressure release rumble that sounds like it comes out of the top of the boiler, and sounds like a miniature Kelly boiling. This happens in the first maybe 5 minutes of the heat up phase and lasts about 6–7 seconds and ends abruptly. This last week the machine stops heating before I hear this noise, and once I get it running again this noise happens within a minute or so.

    To troubleshoot, I’ve given it a good water backflush and cleaned the reservoir in case the little magnet float valve thing wasn’t working properly but hasn’t solved the issue.

    Any ideas as to what might be beginning to fail?

    I maintain the machine well, and pull ~4 shots a day with twice-filtered rainwater (soft water).

    ​Any help of what to check for is appreciated! I have a family event in a couple weeks which I want the machine working for

    Cheers!

  • #2
    Sounds like the Anti-Vac Valve is sticking closed.
    Time to remove, clean and replace on a cold machine.
    Make sure the power plug is removed from the power outlet before commencing...

    Mal.

    Comment


    • WhatEverBeansNecessary
      WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
      Editing a comment
      Agree - seems likely! bkpr super easy job (normally).

      Find an 'exploded' or parts view of your machine in the manual or online to work out which one is the antivac valve.
      Just let the machine cool completely - double check there is no pressure by opening up the steam wand to be safe.
      Unplug at the power outlet.
      Take off the outer housing of the machine so you can access the top of the boiler - probably just a few screws at the top.
      Get a socket and undo the anti vac valve at the boiler.
      Disassemble the antivac valve (take some photos so you know what orientation everything goes in)
      Clean it all with regular dish soap - take off any old teflon tape.
      Give it a good rinse & dry - replace the teflon tape.
      Screw the antivac valve back in and put all the other bits back together.
      Turn the machine back on.

      Should take no more than 30 minutes.

    • roosterben
      roosterben commented
      Editing a comment
      Sage advice above.

      If that doesn't work another possible problem is that the safety valve has failed. This is much less common but I had this recently on a Rocket Giotto. The safety valve is a high pressure safety valve that vents pressure at say 1.8 bar to avoid the boiler blowing up in the case the pressure stat/switch has failed. They are not repairable so if it is letting pressure out it needs to be removed and replaced.

      Try the anti-vac valve first though.

  • #3
    Thanks everyone! I had a look inside following these instructions: https://support.clivecoffee.com/en/e...er-replacement

    Removed the valve completely (top and bottom sections), wiped them down with alcohol and reinstalled with mixed results (fired up properly this morning (yay!), will not reach temp later this morning (boo). The brass valve stalk (?) seemed fairly clean but alcohol did help a little. The bottom section that screws into the top of the boiler seemed to have some crusty sort of paste which I removed. I reinstalled with a little teflon tape — not sure if this is a good thing or not. If not, what should I use on the threads? (there was nothing on the threads that join the two nuts together so I left those threads bare. Tightened everything just snug.

    Looks like I can get a new valve for ~$20 so I'll order and replace.
    https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/70075...r-vacuum-valve

    roosterben The safety valve is the blue part in the pic in the link I posted above? Can I check for a leak if I take the top plate off and fire it up to listen/see? If I'm ordering the anti-vac valve I'd probably get a safety valve also to save time. I can find this part also for ~$50, but not sure which to get. Mine looks slightly different to the pic in the link above, and has Q970 written on it instead of Q969.

    Would it be safe to assume the safety valve is 1/4" if the anti-vac valve part is 1/4"?
    Edit: Safety valve is 3/8' according to the exploded diagram: https://support.wholelattelove.com/h...ts_Diagram.pdf

    Thanks everyone for the quick replies! Imma get to the bottom of this

    Comment


    • roosterben
      roosterben commented
      Editing a comment
      bkpr - my apologies, looking at the parts diagram your machine boiler safety device is part 5 and is actually a temperature based thermostat, rather than a pressure safety valve. This cuts power to the heating element when is reaches 145 degrees (which will equate to very high pressure over 2 bar).

      I would say this means almost 100% that your anti-vac valve is the fault, no need to replace the temperature thermostat. If it was faulty most likely the boiler wouldn't heat at all.

      The other thing you can do to clear your anti-vac valve is grab a wooden or plastic spoon while the machine is running (careful as there are live 240v terminals inside) and up to pressure. Press the anti-vac valve a few times and let it blast out steam (again be careful as it will blast out hot steam), this can sometimes make it return to normal behavior.

    • WhatEverBeansNecessary
      WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
      Editing a comment
      This sounds about right. My anti vac valve also didn't have tape or anything between the two components.
      You can also check that the valve opens after its cool - that should tell you if it's working correctly. And if so time to move on and check other things. It's a relatively simple piece that not too much can really go wrong outside of a leak or stickiness and should be fixed with cleaning and some teflon tape.
      Doubt you would need to order a new anti vac valve unless the seals are busted - in which case you can probably just get a new seal (but I have heard sometimes for some machines its just easier to buy a new valve than find the specific seal).

  • #4
    WhatEverBeansNecessary "You can also check that the valve opens after its cool - that should tell you if it's working correctly" So in this scenario, the 'pin' should be poking up or down when it';s cool? Assume down/almost flush with the surrounding nut as (in my mind) the valve at the bottom will've dropped, allowing air to flow around and out of the top. If the pin is up, it means the valve has pushed up against the inside of the nut, against the o-ring, sealing the system?

    I'll check when the machine cools down. Interestingly, I had the machine on for ~45mins today, and it got progressively warmer but water was cool enough to run over your hand without burning. I then turned it off/on, and it proceeded to heat up and build pressure all the way (so we got our second coffees in for the day Does this behaviour still seem like the anti-vac valve is the issue?

    Comment


    • WhatEverBeansNecessary
      WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
      Editing a comment
      The pin should be up when hot and down when cool.

      Quick explanation is that when the machine heats up the air rushes out first which doesn't have enough force to close the valve. Once all the air is out and steam starts escaping the steam has enough force to close the pin. So you should hear a hiss for maybe 5-30 seconds (depending on a bunch of stuff) and then it will stop. From then on the pressure should build up and you will see that in the gauge for the boiler (if it has one).

      I'm certainly no expert but no this doesn't sound like an anti vac valve issue now. Even a sticky anti vac valve should mean the machine heats up it just doesn't let the air escape and you get a bit of 'false pressure' from the air.

      I'd be checking the pressure stat/switch next as roosterben suggested and I haven't done this before so a little out of my league sorry.
      But the pressurestat is just a mechanical switch that once enough pressure has built up it disengages and stops the boiler heating. Once the pressure is down below the threshold from the boiler cooling it will engage the boiler will heat up again.
      I think if this is faulty it's probably a replace, but worth checking it out to see if there is anything obviously wrong. You can check the membrane/rubber diaphragm bit to see if there are any cracks and also check the contacts to see if it looks good.
      There is a thread here about how to check the pressurestat/boiler element if you have a multimeter: https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/equ...d-pressurestat

      And there is also this cool explanation of how a pressurestat works: http://www.espressomyespresso.com/pressurestat.html

      Best of luck! Hopefully someone else could chime in with their experience on your machine or something similar.

  • #5
    Thanks everyone. Appreciate the help.

    My machine is still under a few days (!!) warranty but it's prohibitively expensive to ship interstate. Because if this, the tech at the store I purchased from is helping me troubleshoot the issue over the phone which is very nice. He too is confused about the recent info posted above. When I was on the phone, the machine element was audibly heating for ~90 secs, then the sound died off to silence for about 5 minutes. It then heated and stopped in the same manner a couple of times before finally continuing to heat and build pressure all the way. This was from a semi-warm machine (a couple hours after previous coffee). He has given me instructions to check for the red light on the Solid State Relay during initial warmup from cold—it should remain on until the machine has reached temperature apparently. I'll do that tomorrow morning and chat with him.

    I'll keep this thread updated as I go for posterity

    It's the third instance in the last couple months of a potential multimeter usage. About time I got one of those.
    Last edited by bkpr; 12 October 2022, 02:59 PM.

    Comment


    • #6
      Update: Technician still confused over the phone. But I observed the machine with lid off on first heat this morning and saw:

      - Solid State Relay; little red light comes on when heating and off when not. What's happening is the light comes on with heating noises, then after a minute or so begins gently flickering until it flickers/fades out. Heating stops. This happens on a cycle every 5 minutes or so. After the third or fourth time, the element heated all the way through.

      - Technician would try replacing the SSR and test. So I'm ordering a SSR as well as the anti-vac valve as a solution, or potential spare.

      - Currently (patiently) waiting on the second session for the day to heat, but after 4 cycles so far, it hasn't pushed through to heat all the way.
      If anyone has any other thoughts I'm all ears.

      Comment


      • WhatEverBeansNecessary
        WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
        Editing a comment
        Good luck!
        Doesn't sound like an antivac valve issue to me anymore. Sounds more like a pressurestat issue.
        Flickering suggests to me that the pressurestat thinks it's getting to the right pressure and when it's flickering it's at the ready or right pressure state and bouncing between needing more heat or not. Sounds like it's sticking somewhere.
        Then drops below this pressure as it cools slightly to trigger the element again. Finally it overcomes the point where it sticks and gets to the right temp.

        Hope the tech can help you problem solve and get it fixed!

      • Dimal
        Dimal commented
        Editing a comment
        Agree with WEBN...
        With that extra information, sounds like the p/stat needs checking/replacing...

    • #7
      I've ordered the anti-vac valve, a pressurestat, and a relay. Between these I expect (hope ???) the issue is fixed. If not, have to find a shop in Melbourne that will fix the machine under the few weeks left of warranty (machine was shipped from NSW store). Family gets aeropress. Or tea ?

      Comment


      • bkpr
        bkpr commented
        Editing a comment
        UPDATE: Have a found a local ECM authorised repairer so despite having ordered the parts mentioned above, these guys will repair under the few weeks warranty I have left on the machine Chuffed. Plus, I'll have $100 worth of spares should any of the above mentioned things fail in the coming months/years. Will update once I know the cause/treatment.

        Thanks again for everyone's help and attention.

    • #8
      I don’t know why your original service tech did not tell you or why you didn’t just take it to an ECM authorised repair centre when the trouble first started especially as it is still under warranty
      if the parts you have ordered were purchased through this service tech just return them for a refund.
      Maurice

      Comment


      • #9
        Hi Maurice. I 100% agree with your thought, but as it turns out, this was a massive headache I wasn't going to mention. But, seeing you asked I'll lay out the order of events:
        1. According to the interstate** shop I bought my machine from, apparently it has a "return to base" warranty (and preferably on a wooden pallet!). And given all initial research pointed toward a $20 part, I wasn't prepared to pack and post it back to NSW from Vic. **I bought interstate right when there were shutdowns of manufacturing around the world due to the pandemic, and was desperate to find anyone who had one in stock. None in Vic at the time unfortunately.
        2. After contacting ECM's Aussie distributor (espresso connect in NSW) they found me an authorised repairer in Vic, about an hour away from me. So that's where I took the machine on the Friday morning. I had ordered the pressure stat, vacuums breaker, and solid state relay by this point.
        3. Around Friday noon, Espresso Connect called me to inform me that they've cancelled my warranty repair because a) "return to base warranty", and b) I removed the cover to the machine therefore completely voiding my warranty.
        4. I went back to talk with the repair shop to do the repair with my money. Interestingly, they were reluctant, citing a fear that I would attempt to get my cost reimbursed with ECM after the fact, and they didn't want to deal with that headache (direct quote). In the end I pinky swore I wouldn't do that so they would repair the machine.
        5. The repair shop couldn't replicate the problem, but replaced the pressure stat and SSR based on the video I sent them of the flickering light. They also replaced the vacuum breaker because it was leaking. The exact same parts I ordered that were in transit to me, which I'll now hoard as spares The shop gave it a proper once-over, descaled, cleaned, replaced a rubber bung on the steam tap.
        ///

        Epilogue: I've been using the machine the last five days and it's been working well. The steam pressure seems a bit high at 2.25 bar but I'm really only comparing it to when the machine was sick and the pressure was sitting at ~1.5 bar (when it heated all the way). I'll have to find out where it *should* be sitting and adjust. The gauge sits at 0.25 bar at rest so the pressure is actually at ~1.75–2bar.

        I'm still a bit dubious about a 'return to base' warranty, or the idea that a particular machine couldn't be repaired by *any* authorised repairer. Seems like they were trying to wiggle their way out of a warranty repair cost (or some sort of deal that guarantees the seller gets the repair work), but I'm generally pretty cynical about such things. I understand the rule about opening the machine and voiding the warranty.


        Comment


        • bkpr
          bkpr commented
          Editing a comment
          I should probably also say, I don't know whether the 'return to base' warranty is from Espresso Connect (Aussie distributor) or ECM itself.
          Last edited by bkpr; 23 October 2022, 08:54 PM.

        • Blues1143
          Blues1143 commented
          Editing a comment
          Is it legal to void a warranty in Australia based on opening a machine????

        • bkpr
          bkpr commented
          Editing a comment
          Good question: especially since I did it with advice/instruction from the mechanic at the shop I bought it from. The guy (owner?) at Espresso Connect was very stern on the opening of the machine point, saying that "voids the warranty anywhere in the world". *man shrugging emoji*
          Last edited by bkpr; 23 October 2022, 10:08 PM.

      • #10
        Originally posted by bkpr View Post
        The steam pressure seems a bit high at 2.25 bar but I'm really only comparing it to when the machine was sick and the pressure was sitting at ~1.5 bar (when it heated all the way). I'll have to find out where it *should* be sitting and adjust. The gauge sits at 0.25 bar at rest so the pressure is actually at ~1.75–2bar.
        The official manual makes repeated references of "Wait until the pressure gauge indicates approx. 1.0–1.25 bar". Seems I need to twerk the pressure stat to …take the pressure down (thanks Farnsy!). Currently at ~2bar which is obviously too high. Resting pressure says 0.25, so will aim for 1.5 bar.

        https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/equ...im-user-manual

        Comment


        • #11
          Sounds like total hogwash;

          https://www.choice.com.au/shopping/c...onsumer-rights
          ​​​​​​

          ​​​​​​I would be enforcing your rights and if the reseller doesn't play ball give them shitty reviews on all their social channels.

          Pretty sure according to ACL you have the right to get it repaired at any authorised ECM repairer.

          Comment


          • #12
            That is pretty crap service from Espresso Connect, I would certainly contact choice and the office of a fair trading to see what your rights are.
            A pretty clear case of supplier not passing the Pub test.
            Maurice

            Comment


            • bkpr
              bkpr commented
              Editing a comment
              I have now contacted vic affairs to see what they think.

          • #13
            Good luck with it all. Sounds like a right headache and certainly ECM and/or Espresso connect should be footing the bill for the repair.

            Interestingly straight from the ACCC website: https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pr...-refund-cancel

            "
            Responsibility for returning products
            Consumers are responsible for returning products that can be posted or easily returned.

            Businesses are responsible for paying for the shipping costs or collecting faulty products that are large, heavy or hard to remove, such as:

            widescreen televisions
            beds
            installed appliances, like stoves or dishwashers
            extension ladders stuck in an extended position.
            This must be done within a reasonable time.

            Return costs
            If the business confirms that the product does have a problem, it must reimburse the consumer for any reasonable return costs they have already paid.

            Consumers should keep receipts for postage or transport costs so that they can be repaid by the business.

            If the business finds that the product does not have a problem, it can make the consumer pay the collection and inspection costs. To do this, the business must give the consumer a reasonable estimate of these costs before collecting the product.
            "​

            Very much sounds like to me that ECM/Espresso Connect confirm there is a problem and they are liable for fixing it + costs to ship the machine under Australian Consumer Law.

            Comment


            • #14
              Some important points here

              - if you buy a machine interstate, if at all possible keep the original box and pallet for future freight if needed . You are always going to get better warranty service if you can return it to where you bought it . You can quite often arrange return freight thru who you bought it off - most likely significantly cheaper than the cost of the parts you bought because some internet experts told you to....
              - There is no such thing as "authorised ECM repairers" Australia just doesn't have the training facities or infrastructure to support it . Most likely it's a local repairer who the seller has contacted and asked "hey mate, can you look at this machine for me" They may or may not have ever even seen an ECM machine before....
              - If you do take it somewhere after you've taken it apart, it becomes much harder for them because they not only have to find the original intermittent fault, but also determine if it was there before or after you tried to fix it . I'd be concerned if they gave you back a machine that was going to 2.25 on the gauge

              In short - Return to base, or take it to agreed repairer always when in warranty .

              Comment


              • #15
                Righto everyone.
                1. I've spoken with a woman from Vic Consumer affairs, she agrees that "return to base" warranty can be a thing because such things are/should be outlined in the T&Cs of the contract of sale. I didn't read these of course. So it's possible, and probably likely, that's what I signed up for. I typically make large purchases like this closet to home, but pandemic situation and desperation forced my hand. Anyway, the repair + once-over cost me ~$280. I'm happy to let this dog lie and move forward with coffee again
                2. I've fiddled with the pressure stat to get the boiler down to 1.5bar on the gauge (1.25bar in reality). Seems ok now. At least I'm confident I can fiddle with this in the future to change if needed.
                3. @kofekitt All good points. a) I often keep large boxes for 'a while' before discarding, but evidently not two years Big bloody box! b) According to the ECM distributor there is *man shrugging*. The place had what seemed like the full range of ECM machines there as well as what looked like a comprehensive workshop. They looked as 'official' as I would expect, but also agree it could simply be a contractor Espresso Connect organised (at the lowest price?) in my state. 3) Yeah, I fully understand the issues of working on something that someone else tinkered with, and I was never in dispute of this part of a warranty. 3b) I was surprised after finding out the manual for my machine stated a 1–1.25bar pressure setting and my machine was run-in 2.25 after the service. I won't take my machine there again for this (and another) reason. I have several other *non-authorised* shops closer to me that I'll try in future.
                Final thoughts:
                • Thanks to everyone for all the advice you've given during this saga. Especially in the diagnosis stage of the sick machine. I've learned a lot and hopefully can manage repairs myself (with help from people like you, in forums such as this) in the future.
                • If buying expensive items interstate, read the T&Cs, or at least ask what happens if there an issue. I see my $3k for a machine like this is not just for the machine, but for aftercare as well.
                • I'm not sure whether I could recommend ECM machines after this though. At least not until the memory of the last couple weeks fades, and only if the machine performs well over the coming years.
                Thanks again friends!

                Comment

                Working...
                X