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  • #16
    Re: Iberital review

    It certainly seemed like a great shop. I was really happy when I walked in and saw that they roasted their own beans too - however I think Ciscos (formerly called Santos) on Chapel st will give them a run for their money! In terms of Coffee expertise (i.e. all about the bean and roasting etc...), Fred Gomo from Ciscos is the most knowledgable person I have ever spoken to. He used to do an annual radio show on Triple RRR (in Melbourne) with the DJ Hedly late at night - it was a great show.

    So for those of us in the Metro suburbs of Melbourne, we have a couple of great places nearby to buy freshly roasted beans: Coffee Company, and Ciscos. Anyone got any other places theyd recommend?

    Also, thanks for the comments on the grinders! I have made my decision and will go with an Iberital Challenge doserless grinder. I had a look at the doser version but it seems that the doser is *extremely* el-cheapo. Even the Gaggia MDF doser is crap. So ill go doserless.

    Now I just need to build a table to put the machine and grinder on. The 45 year-old flat that wifee and I rent has hardly any bench space! Putting the Silvia and grinder on the bench will take up over 33% of the available bench space....

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Iberital review

      Hmmmm... starting to reconsider this decision. Can someone tell me why a Rocky is better than a Lux or MDF?
      I.e. is it just a case of a steel body, good looks etc... or does it actually grind better?
      I also saw a Cunill Tranquilo for quite a bit cheaper than a Rocky and apparently it has bigger burs too.

      I just dont want to have to spend several hundred dollars again in a year or two because the grinder died. I need something that will last at least 4 years. Would an Iberital Challenge last this long? The world of coffee is alot like the world of PC gamers - everything has a tradeoff and there is SO MUCH to choose from.

      Rob

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Iberital review

        Originally posted by ihug007 link=1110157172/15#16 date=1124251542
        Hmmmm... starting to reconsider this decision.  Can someone tell me why a Rocky is better than a Lux or MDF?
        I.e. is it just a case of a steel body, good looks etc... or does it actually grind better?
        I also saw a Cunill Tranquilo for quite a bit cheaper than a Rocky and apparently it has bigger burs too.

        Rob
        I am no expert on this and I am not selling them either, but I reckon that the lux will do as good a grind as any of the others.  It is also conical which supposed to be better for the coffee as it is grinding at a slower RPM so it keeps the coffee cooler and makes a more consistent grind.  Less left over coffee will stay in between the burrs also due to the conical shape of the burrs, as the coffee falls through down the middle.  The burrs should last longer then an equivalent flat burr machine also.  It is nice and small and is of quality built.  The Rocky is not a conical grinder as far as I know but some like it better because it has steppless adjutsments unlike the Luxs steppet adjustment.  The lux works fine with its steppless adjustment, though. So far I never need adjustment sbetween the steps it has.  The more you pay the more bling and size you get with bigger burrs that will last longer in a commercial or heavy use setting.
        If you only make a couple of coffees per day at home, like me, the Lux should last you forever.  I do like the Lux that I bought off Attilio from CosmoreX, one of the sponsors of this forum.  
        By the way the Lux has stainless steel body and it looks good, is by far the smallest, and takes the least space on the benchtop.

        I reckon, all you need is the Lux, but most will justify why they forked out so much more for their grinders, just like their espresso machines.  If money is no object, then go for the more expensive ones, but if it is somewhat of an issue, then just go for the Lux and it will not dissapoint you for many years to come, I reckon.   [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Iberital review

          Thanks Monti,

          Money certainly is an issue. I have several other things I need to spend money on (i.e. desperately need to update my PC ~ $600 right there) and other possibley more important stuff too. However I feel like I simply cant take not having good coffee anymore and must prioritise this expense accordingly.

          Regarding the quality of grind on the Lux vs Rocky. After some more reading and looking at the two machines, Im lead to believe the price difference is mainly due to a couple of things as follows:
          * The market will bear a higher price tag on the Rocky, regardless of the fact that it may not last any longer than any other grinder it competes against or have any more/better features. E.g. the Gaggia MDF has almost the same specs, but is over $100 cheaper. Also the Iberital Challenge has more in the way of features (adjustable auto timed doses etc...) but cost WAY less.
          * Rocky has a steel/brass assembly that holds the burrs, Lux/Iberital have plastic composite ones. This would most likely cost Rancilio a few more dollars during manufacture.
          * Rocky has a larger motor - the same one used in some of its bigger machines apparently. However, this usually saves a company money during production because they are sharing parts amongst their product lineup and can therefore buy/manufacture them in great economies of scale.

          I think the Rocky is a great product, but im not convinced it grinds any better than an MDF or Lux/Iberital. The arguments "its a Rocky" or "it looks beautiful" dont cut it for me, though I agree it truly does look beautiful

          I have also read the comment "The Rocky will be the only grinder you ever buy" many times, however this is a moot point since no one seems to keep them longer than a couple years before upgrading to a Mazza Mini, et al. Anyway you cut it, the Rocky, along with the Lux/Iberital etc... are still just high-end domestic machines that have been designed with scaled down commerical parts (kind of like how a Silvia is a high-end domestic machine, made from scaled down commerical Rancilio parts). I guess eventually everyone wants to get real commercial equipment. ;D

          So after all this ranting, I think I will just stick with the Iberital Challenge. Its uglier than the Rocky, but will do just as good a job, plus it has a few more features (adjustable auto timed doses, infinite grind worm adjustment) and need I mention its over $170 cheaper? I havent read a bad thing about it yet....

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Iberital review

            Hi again Rob,

            Speaking as one who now uses a Rocky, the main reason for changing over from my previous Lux grinder was one mainly of grinding rate when there are half-a-dozen or more expectant imbibers waiting for their espressos/cappas, etc the Lux was just a bit too slow. It was also a bit too noisy and made it difficult if not impossible to carry on a conversation while grinding... the Rocky is much quieter.

            For me, it is also a bit easier to use than the Lux as I dont have very good dexterity after a couple of strokes and the orientation just suits me better. Its a pretty substantial beast though, weighs the same as my Mokita and once its sited on the benchtop, thats where it stays. According to respected coffee afficiandos, the Rocky and other Flat Burr grinders do not produce as sweet a brew as a Conical Burr grinder but I think that difference can only be detected by a very few people with exceptional and discriminating palates. Me? I cant tell the difference.

            So, thats it in a nutshell. If you like the Ibertal from the cosmetic and ergonomic viewpoints, be assured that you are grinding your coffee with the best grinding method currently available to the domestic market and at a very attractive price. Go for it I say,

            Cheers,
            Mal.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Iberital review

              I sell & service both Lux and Rocky but not Iberital.

              From the point of view of reading what youve written above, about what youve been reading on the net, and knowing what I know from an actual working / industry point of view about these 2 grinders, I can make the following observations...

              Mal has about hit the nail on the head with his observations. The rocky is solid, heavy, bigger, and therefore actually easier to work with and around. There is nothing more frustrating, especially when entertaining, than to work around a light, flimsy piece of equipment that keeps moving around or falling over while you are trying to use it, or is simply difficult because of its small size.

              In addition as you have read, Rocky has a far better standard of build using better quality parts and therefore it will give FAR LESS service problems a long time down the track, which will also be a long time after the other grinder has been retired ( & that is not to say the other is not a good grinder for the price, simply that it wont last as long due to the standard & quality of build & parts used...).

              In addition, the stronger motor for me, is an extremely important point as we see enough grinders that for whatever reason (and most times it is the clients fault) have been "jamed up" with coffee and the motor is precariously close to failing....the strong rocky motor is a damn fine thing. And by the way, who cares if the initial cost of the stronger motor cost this manufacturer less....irrelevant. This has nothing to do with what they wish to charge for you to buy the finished grinder. What is relevant, is that the client has a win because the manufacturer uses a better strionger motor.

              I am not making these observations from the point of view of wanting to sell you, or anyone else a grinder by the way,  but if  I was buying a grinder I would be buying the heavier stronger larger machine that is easier to work around and will have an indefinite service life in my home. I buy on quality, not price, although price is something to be seriously considered (and discarded if the quality is not there).

              To put it all into perspective. I dont know what the Iberital sells for but the for the $165.00 difference between the RRP of Lux VS Rocky, I personally would buy the Rocky. There is nothing wrong with the standard of quality of grind of the Lux but the Lux is cheaper to buy up front, and will cost you MORE money in the long run because it will require fixing or replacing sometime down the track. The Rocky wont, except in circumstances where you just feel like upgrading because you want to.

              Spend the extra, only buy once, and the extra amount spent will pale into insignificance when calculated at an annual rate over the life of the grinder (which will be a considerable number of years).

              Regardz,
              FC.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Iberital review

                Originally posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1110157172/15#20 date=1124319180
                I sell & service both Lux and Rocky but not Iberital.

                The rocky is solid, heavy, bigger, and therefore actually easier to work with and around. There is nothing more frustrating, especially when entertaining, than to work around a light, flimsy piece of equipment that keeps moving around or falling over while you are trying to use it, or is simply difficult because of its small size.
                Keeps moving around?  Light and flimsy?  You sold me a light and flimsy grinder, FC?  You didnt tell me that when you sold me the Lux! LOL
                Anyway, It doesnt move around for me when I use it at all.  You just have to rest the pf on the holder and push it against the switch and you have fresh gound coffee in seconds.  I never move around it and it has never fallen over either.  

                [edit]In addition as you have read, Rocky has a far better standard of build using better quality parts and therefore it will give FAR LESS service problems a long time down the track, which will also be a long time after the other grinder has been retired ( & that is not to say the other is not a good grinder for the price, simply that it wont last as long due to the standard & quality of build & parts used...).[/edit]

                You told me the Lux was as good as any other.  For domestic purposes it should last for ages.  

                In addition, the stronger motor for me, is an extremely important point as we see enough grinders that for whatever reason (and most times it is the clients fault) have been "jamed up" with coffee and the motor is precariously close to failing....the strong rocky motor is a damn fine thing.
                My Lux never seems to be strugling.  :-?

                There is nothing wrong with the standard of quality of grind of the Lux but the Lux is cheaper to buy up front, and will cost you MORE money in the long run because it will require fixing or replacing sometime down the track. The Rocky wont, except in circumstances where you just feel like upgrading because you want to.
                What is a long run?  more then 10 years?  15 maybe?  Most would want to get a new one before that happens, no?  :-/
                We are talking 1 or 2 coffees per day here.  Arent we?  Not 50 -100 per day.  The Rocky costs 60% more, so it better last 60% more as well.  I would assume that the service parts would cost 60% more too as they are "better quality". No?  So, would we be saving money at all having the Rocky?

                Spend the extra, only buy once, and the extra amount spent will pale into insignificance when calculated at an annual rate over the life of the grinder (which will be a considerable number of years).
                If you are unlucky and if it breaks down it will also cost you more for the parts.  Does it not?  It is a Rocky after all.

                All that matters at the end of the day is whether the ginder grinds to the standard that is required.  Otherwise we could be spending megabucks on equipment.  Should we all have the most expensive espresso machines and grinders?  If a machine can produce the required espresso or grind every time, then well all be happy.  Is how long it lasts much of an issue when you make 1-2 coffees a day?  

                I wouldnt mind getting a Rocky or a Mazzer Mini if money was no object, but it is.  There has to be a diminishing benefit when you spend more money on something.  Can we at home tap into the extra benefits that more expensie machines can offer?  If they all have just as good grinds and if we dont do much volume then do we benefit much from a stronger motor?  I dont know.   :-/  
                How much is a replacement motor for the Lux versus the Rocky, anyway?  Wouldnt you have to be very unlucky to have your motor not last for 10 years in one of these?
                You could get 2 Lux grinders for $500, or one Rocky for $400.  
                It is hard to see the expensive grinders as good value.  They would be better quality and may have better features if you want them, but the ground coffee coming out of the spout is still the same quality.  
                Like Mal cannot tell the difference between the taste of coffee from a conical versus a flat burr grinder, we cannot, also, tell the difference between the coffee from any of these grinders, indeed.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Iberital review

                  Gday Monti.

                  I feel you may be taking me out of context a little here. From memory when you bought your grinder, you already knew what you wanted. I dont remember there being much discussion about a comparison with other grinders....or if there was it was probably only in passing. Perhaps my recollection has faded?

                  Yes the lux is a good little grinder and many of the points you have made are quite valid....I didnt say it wasnt. I am only pointing out differences from the point of view of a straight comparison of grinders as has been put to the members above.

                  On the one hand I can listen to a clients needs and point them in the right direction for them, and on the other hand  I can also make an unemotional critical analysis between 2 pieces of equipment. These are two entirely separate issues.

                  The remarks I made concerning the grinder moving about, falling over etc, are purely my own personal observations tempered through years of experience with commercial quality equipment. I probably would not have the Lux at my home.....I have no patience for its small light  construction as I am quite "rough and ready" when making coffee...this doesnt mean it is not probably the best under $300.00 grinder in the domestic market....just that to go to not much more than $400.00 gets you (me) a much better one for reasons other than just straight grind quality.

                  The Lux will last for ages, a Rocky or Cafe Tranquilo will last longer.

                  The Lux has a slightly "complicated" method of assembly around the hopper / adjuster / burr set, and some clients cant seem to put them back together the same way they came apart (when theyre in there cleaning). It is not uncommon for them to bring the grinder in with motor struggling, because theyve re-assembled it with burrs too close together, unable to work out why its grinding talcum powder and on the verge of burning itself out. This wont happen with Rocky or Tranquilo with their more conventional & simple method of assembly, flat burrs and simple (mostly) metal parts.

                  Mind you, the above (struggling motor syndrome) wouldnt happen if the owners would keep out of places where they shouldnt have been in the first place.

                  The price difference between a Lux and a Rocky ( and a tranquilo) ...for a coffeesnob....is insignificant when you compare them as has been done above. In fact, they are basically in the "cheap" end of the quality market...for a coffessnob, because to go to a lesser grinder than the Lux, is basically not to have a decent grinder at all.....but you are right, I wouldnt necessarily have an "expensive" grinder either, because it wont do any more for me than a simple rocky doserless or tranquilo (except for the lack of mess).

                  I guess then, we are all allowed to have a different personal preference!

                  Regardz,
                  FC.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Iberital review

                    Originally posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1110157172/15#22 date=1124335617
                    Gday Monti.

                    I feel you may be taking me out of context a little here. From memory when you bought your grinder, you already knew what you wanted. I dont remember there being much discussion about a comparison with other grinders....or if there was it was probably only in passing. Perhaps my recollection has faded?
                    Sorry if I did take you out of context, FC.  I didnt mean to.
                    When we first met I didnt know anything about the Lux or any other grinder in fact.  I saw it first at CosmoreX.  I asked what you think of the Lux, Macap, and whatever you had there, and you said that the Lux will do as good a job as any of the others and for home use there is no real need to go more expensive.  Was no mention about longetivity.  Because of your advice I came back to purchase the Lux.  And I am glad I did.  It fulfills my need perfectly.  

                    The remarks I made concerning the grinder moving about, falling over etc, are purely my own personal observations tempered through years of experience with commercial quality equipment. I probably would not have the Lux at my home.....I have no patience for its small light  construction as I am quite "rough and ready" when making coffee...this doesnt mean it is not probably the best under $300.00 grinder in the domestic market....just that to go to not much more than $400.00 gets you (me) a much better one for reasons other than just straight grind quality.
                    If the criteria is not the grind quality but that it is heavy, then you just need to bolt it down or onto something heavy.  ;D It is still going to be cheaper then the rest and it wont move about.
                    OK, I was only joking.  

                    The Lux will last for ages, a Rocky or Cafe Tranquilo will last longer.
                    So, the question is whether one needs a grinder that lasts for ages, or ages plus longer.  
                    Ok, I am sorry, I just couldnt help myself.

                    It is not uncommon for them to bring the grinder in with motor struggling, because theyve re-assembled it with burrs too close together, unable to work out why its grinding talcum powder and on the verge of burning itself out.

                    Mind you, the above (struggling motor syndrome) wouldnt happen if the owners would keep out of places where they shouldnt have been in the first place.
                    So, it is not that the motor going to break down, it is rather, that some people do what they shouldnt and break it.   :
                    Ill probably be one of those.  :-[
                    The price difference between a Lux and a Rocky ( and a tranquilo) ...for a coffeesnob....is insignificant when you compare them as has been done above. In fact, they are basically  in the "cheap" end of the quality market...for a coffessnob..............
                    Price difference (especially a 60% one, as Rocky $400 which is $150 more on top of the Lux at $250) is always significant.  I guess it is not for those that sell it.  For those that buy it, it always is, whether you are a CoffeeSnob or not.  I am in sales too and it is amazing how much people bargain just to get anything off something.  If it wasnt then none of us on this forum would be always talking about how much cheaper we can get the coffee machines and grinders somewhere else.  That is why you always offer discounts to people here.  If it wouldnt matter then we wouldnt ask and you wouldnt offer.  Salesmen always say that the price is not an issue, but it always is for the buyer.  Upselling is good for the seller as the profit margin is also larger.  One would make more on a Rocky then on a Lux.  Just like youd make hardly anything on a Sunbeam as opposed to the Giotto.  

                    I guess then, we are all allowed to have a different personal preference!
                    Of course we are.  I am only talking about how I see it.  No hard feelings if someone doesnt agree.  I want you guys to know that I do(and I do often) like to conside things from a different angle.  I dont mean to force anyone to agree with me.  I hope that it just creates conversation and we might learn something.  

                    I have learned a lot from your posts.  Often the more controversial a topic is (or I am) the more people with knowledge write and the more we all learn.  It has to be good.  

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Iberital review

                      Originally posted by ihug007 link=1110157172/0#10 date=1124069040
                      Great comments guys - thanks so much.  
                       Anyway, I have determined that for the amount of coffee I will be grinding, a Rocky is simply overkill.  I may be making as few as 6 coffees per week (its just me and wifee in the house, and wifee doesnt drink much coffee)   
                      Thats still a coffee every day, basically. A good grinder is probably more important than the machine, so its best to spend more than you feel you have to. With an inferior quality grinder, youll not enjoy the 6 per week. Youll certainly up your intake when you make coffee from a well set up, good quality grinder. Whether its 6 or 60, quality is number 1.
                      Most of us are looking for justification to spend more, rather than less, so I respect your restraint!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Iberital review

                        Originally posted by el espressio link=1110157172/15#24 date=1124396850

                        Thats still a coffee every day, basically.  A good grinder is probably more important than the machine, so its best to spend more than you feel you have to.  With an inferior quality grinder, youll not enjoy the 6 per week.  Youll certainly up your intake when you make coffee from a well set up, good quality grinder.  Whether its 6 or 60, quality is number 1.  
                        Quality of ground coffee is numer 1, for sure, and the Lux grinds to the same quality as the Rocky or even more expensive grinders.  You are paying for bling and maybe longetivity as you go more expensive.  If the Lux would grind to inferior quality, then I would agree with you.  But it doesnt.  So, you are going to enjoy your coffee just the same.  
                        One coffee per day is far from high volume for these grinders, so longetivity shouldnt be the problem, unless you are naughty, going to take them appart and start doing things to it you shouldnt, like FC said.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Iberital review

                          imho you can tell a lot about a grinder just by picking it up!

                          I picked up the Lux grinder at Supreme Machines the other day and the quality is nowhere near that of a Rocky or most other grinders.

                          Im sure it works but the build quality is nowhere near the same and were not talking small differences here but BIG differences.

                          Just walk into a shop and do the pickup test.

                          The Rocky weighs about 7kg according to my manual and the Nemox Lux weighs about 2kg!

                          There really is no comparison and considering the difference in price the Rocky is excellent value.

                          Grant

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Iberital review

                            The pick-up test will not tell you how it grinds.  Isnt how it grinds why we buy the grinder?   :

                            What about grind test and taste test?  I would say, they would be more important.  

                            If the Lux grinds as good as the Rocky then its smaller size and weight makes it more convenient.  

                            Also, the fact that it is a conical grinder allows it to be smaller.  The surface area of the same size conical burrs are larger then the equal size flat burrs, anyway.  The Luxs performance (and that is what counts after all not the weight) is better then its size juggests.

                            What ends up in the cup is what we are all interested in after all. That is why many here buy the Sylvia, otherwise we would all just spend more and get a Giotto or something even more expensive and "heavy".
                            We could all go for the overkill, even though some of us only consume one coffee per day, to make sure that our equipments last long enough to pass them down to our grandchildren.  But really, all we need and want is the best coffee we can end up in the cup for the least money outlay.

                            While there is nothing wrong with spending more money (and I am going to purchase another grinder and machine before the end of the year) if you can afford it, but when someone that doesnt drink much coffee asks for advice on grinders and the money is tight then performance for the least money has to be what is important.  His coffee will be just as good as if he bought the Rocky for and extra $150 or so.  

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Iberital review

                              I love a good debate!

                              I certainly can appreciate quality - I was brought up to always buy the very best, almost with blatant disregard to cost. Dad was an aircraft engine mechanic in the Air Force, hence my indoctrination to quality comes first at all cost. I guess because if you skimp on quality when youre fixing up a jet engine, people can die... :-/

                              However, since Im not exactly a high income earner I really have to stick to a budget here. Also, were talking about coffee, not life and death (perhaps to some it is!?) And Im still renting (read: I need to put money towards a house)

                              SO, a lot of this comes down to how we choose to prioritise our finances. After doing my reasearch I was originally only going to buy a Gaggia Carezza, but then due to my quality indoctrination, I decided to wait and save more for a Silvia.

                              I would love to buy the Rocky - it looks beautiful and is clearly better constructed. However, the Iberital is clearly fit for purpose, and at only 60% of the cost, Ill have to pass on the Rocky. Regarding replacing motors etc... I did a lot of electronics/communcation engineering stuff at university and have no concern about having to do a simple repair like that (though I doubt I would have to since I take good care of my stuff).

                              Anyway guys, thanks heaps for the lively discussion! I think basically it boils down to this: Toyota, or Audi? They are both reliable cars that take you places, but one is just better quality Guess im just a Toyota guy at this stage in life!

                              Rob

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Iberital review

                                Rob

                                If a Mazzer or even the higher priced machines are out of your budget so be it, I too live in a world of limited funds and I fully understand what your saying.

                                If your looking around for a grinder then please concider the Cunil Tranquillo grinder, 64mm blades say a lot for this machine, we have one, and I certainly do have a couple of gripes with it, however in the 12 months that we have had it we have ploughed through close to 20-30kgs of coffee whether it has been for our own personal consumption of grinding cofee for friends, the grinder has done its jobs and has overall behaved itself very well.

                                Im not certain of the price of it now but I saw them not so long back for close to $300.... I would say the biggest problem I have with it is the noise, but as it only has a pressed steel housing this is expected.

                                Whatever grinder you choose it is you alone who is going to have to live with it.

                                regards

                                FB

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