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  • stepless vs stepped grinder

    Hi all
    Can I have your opinion please about stepless grinder vs stepped? From my reading, there is no difference in quality of grounds between, say a Mazzer Mini, Macap, Cimbali Jnr or Anfim Best. From many comments I have read, fine stepless adjustment may be unnecessary if the steps are sufficiently close, as in say Anfim Best or Macap. What I am interested in is the ability to refind the correct setting on a stepless grinder if one regularly swaps beans. I grind normal beans by day, but use decaffeinated at night. That usually means a slightly different grind setting. I figure this might be a lot easier to swap to with a stepped grinder vs a stepless. Any opinions/experience with this? Comments greatly appreciated.
    Stephen

  • #2
    Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

    Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#0 date=1158321140
    What I am interested in is the ability to refind the correct setting on a stepless grinder if one regularly swaps beans.
    I use different beans in my Mazzer Super Jolly, a stepless grinder, and rotate through up to 4 different varieties of beans and as many or more blends in a single day. Ive found that once I got used to the grinder and the beans its pretty easy to adjust for different beans as well as adjusting for temperature and humidity variations through-out the day.

    Personally as a coffee snob who wants a God Shot every time I would never go with a stepped grinder. That said if someone has lower end espresso equipment, a loose fitting tamper, or cant judge their tamping pressure very well wouldnt be able to utilize the fineness of a stepless grinder to its full potential, and it may well be a detriment to them as theyd end up chasing the right grind.

    If one has middle to high-end equipment with a proper fitting tamper and is able to reliably reproduce the tamping pressure they will be able to take full advantage of a stepless grinder. On the other hand people in this situation would also be able to get consistantly good, perhaps even great, shots with a stepped grinder with small steps by adjusting the dose/tamp slightly.

    If one is not using the grinder for espresso then a stepless grinder would be perfectly adequate to the task.

    My advice would be to not stint on the grinder. A great grinder will allow you to make great shots with a marginal espresso machine. A poor grinder will make it a nightmare to pull great shots even with a commercial espresso machine.

    Java "My 2 cents worth" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

      Hi Stephen,

      I can really only speak about the La Cimbali (which is regarded as a stepless- although there is a click at each 1/25 of a mm- you can adjust it to anywhere in between)

      The La Cimbali has a graduated scale on the burr which is visable.... and so it is easy to re-dial any setting- with complete repeatability.

      I personally find the stepless very good as you can easily change your grind to follow the beans as they age.... the adjustments you can make Im sure are more precise than a stepped grinder.

      The downside is that one turn of the micrometer setting knob varies the grind by 1/25 mm - so if your settings are a fair bit apart - you almost need an electric motor to get there!!

      You would never use it to grind espresso and plunger coffee for example : but it is a truly awesome espresso grinder

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

        Thanks Java
        I want a Got shot every time too. I am certainly not interested in making decisions based on small price differences either. The Anfim Best is actually similar or even dearer price to a Mazzer Mini. I have a Giotto ECM, and ECM disributers have a Best and a MM set up to compare, and I cant tell any difference (though limited number of shots) - certainly the grind quality of the Best seems excellent, and reviews on coffeegeek are all very positive about the Anfim Best. It is nicely proportioned and styled too.

        I have decided on a doser rather than doserless after assessing numerous reviews - seems mess will be less and less clumping with a doser. Lucas insights have been very helpful in this regard.

        At first, I thought the stepped adjustment on the Best might be a negative, but the steps are closely spaced (much closer than on a Rocky) and then I wondered if steps might be an advantage if regularly swapping beans, but that is not your experience. Thanks for sharing.

        Stephen

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

          JavaB
          thanks for your info. The Cimbali was/is very high on my list - seems better specked than MM and Macap - and dearer I guess. Probably match my Giotto too.

          You say there is a click at every 1/25mm - what is that equivalent to? A step on a quality stepped grinder? Does it take you long to rotate 1/25mm?

          Where did you get your Cimbali?

          Stephen

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

            Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#4 date=1158325508
            JavaB
            thanks for your info. The Cimbali was/is very high on my list - seems better specked than MM and Macap - and dearer I guess. Probably match my Giotto too.
            Stephen

            Id say it would be an excellent match to any high end machine.

            You say there is a click at every 1/25mm - what is that equivalent to? A step on a quality stepped grinder? Does it take you long to rotate 1/25mm?
            Ok.... bit of explanation called for

            The rotating burr carrier is threaded into the fixed burr carrier (both carriers are solid brass weighing kilos!!) with a 1 mm pitch thread... so one rotation of the rotating carrier is 1mm difference in spacing.

            There is a worm drive from a knob on the front panel to the rotating burr....

            One rotation of this knob moves the rotating burr 1/25mm closer to or away from the fixed burr. There is an indent every rotation (so you can easily count the 1/25 ths but you can leave the knob at any spot within the rotation (lets assume any one of 20 locations ----- so possible grind variation = 1/500 mm - now that is amazing!!

            And the rotating burr carrier has a scale marked so you can read and reset to any one of the 1/25ths then just note if the front panel knob is at say 2 oclock..... but I generally only use the nearest 1/2 turn - 1/50mm!!!

            Now thats accuracy!

            Where did you get your Cimbali?
            Kept my eyes open for a coffee shop closing down or upgrading gear (same way as I got my 2 group La Cimbali)... If you are patient and in the right place at the right time!!

            They are frequently used in coffee shops as decaf grinders (unlike many of the other grinders - La Cimbali Jnr is a commercial grinder - and VERY heavy as well). They have a commercial rating of 7.5Kg of beans per hour... a bit more than I use it for ;D

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

              Hi Stephen,

              Shopping for a grinder must be a fairly nail-biting experience for people who have never bought one before, particularly if you arent all that familiar with espresso machines. So many damned opinions on the internet ... who do you trust? If you actually get to try out some grinders, you have no real idea if differences were caused by you or the machine ... in fact, if you have never used espresso equipment before, stepped vs stepless probably wont make the slightest difference to you for at least the first three to six months, and thats presuming that you get some introductory training!

              FWIW, I would NEVER go stepped again. Mazzers are great for switching repeatably between a few different types of beans. For example, if you take a felt-tipped pen and make a mark where your espresso setting is, you can switch to plunger grind and back again without many dramas. The Compak grinders adjust similarly, but Im yet to do any great playing with them. My favourite grinder of all time is the Brasilia Competition grinder, which has a locking screw that holds the burr carrier in place. Undo the screw and you can steplessly change the grind really easily. Lock it back in and youre good to go.

              ... so its pretty obvious that Id say to go stepless! You might not notice the difference at first, but its an investment in future coffee quality.

              As for the Anfim Best ... I havent tried it, but Id caution you that price doesnt necessarily mean quality. It might be great; I dont know.

              Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#3 date=1158325111
              I have decided on a doser rather than doserless after assessing numerous reviews - seems mess will be less and less clumping with a doser. Lucas insights have been very helpful in this regard.
              Glad to be of use! I have heard good things about the NEW doserless Compak, but am yet to try it. Be aware that most dosers are probably going to need some sort of modification to get them sweeping all of the grounds out, and many dosers shoot left.

              Unfortunately, no-one has made the perfect grinder yet. It might not even be possible.

              Cheers,

              Luca

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

                Thanks Luca
                I am not a complete novice - pulling daily shots with my Giotto for 3 years, and used a Rocky DL. You might know the Anfim by its better known rebadge Pasquini Moka - except that the Anfim Best is better specked - 300 watt motor - there is a reasonable users review on coffeegeek.

                The comments here are making me rethink towards a Cimbali Jnr or stepless Macap. Mazzas throw to the left is a negative re mess for me. Is a Jnr the same as a Cadet?

                Stephen

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

                  Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#7 date=1158400529
                  Is a Jnr the same as a Cadet?
                  Yep,

                  I think the cadet only comes with the smaller bean hopper where the Jnr came with an option of a higher hopper (which wont fit under most benches ).

                  Mine is the same as the current Cadet model..... and IMHO you couldnt get a better "espresso only" grinder.

                  You might also like to check this comparison:

                  http://www.home-barista.com/feature-spotlight-grinders.html

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

                    Thanks JavaB - yep, I read that review long time ago - mandatory reading!

                    Stephen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

                      Just completed a commercial machine Barista course during which we used a Mazzer Mini grinder..

                      With controlled tamp pressure (measured) the difference between a 10 second flow and choking the group was about three "notches" on the wheel ..... and it was a lot harder to turn to an exact setting than the La Cimbali

                      The La Cimbali takes about 7 turns of the adjustment knob to go from 10 second pour to 25 seconds......

                      It certainly is a much finer (and easier) adjustment on the La Cimbali ;D

                      The other thing the trainer recommended was a doser grinder.... turn the grinder on and dose straight into the basket whilst the grinder is running..... turn off when the basket is nearly full.... tap to pack down..... then empty the grounds left in the doser into the basket, level off and then tamp.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

                        Thanks heaps for your feedback, JavaB
                        I have tried to get a Cimbali Jnr, but Coffex (who sell them, but I am not sure who the importers/distributors are), say the Jnr is not available in Australia.
                        They sell the Cadet, an "upgraded" model with the option of automatic on/off.
                        Problem is, this is only sold with the larger and TALLER hopper (470mm).
                        Same problem exists with Mazzer hoppers in Australia - the shorter hopper is now standard in other countries, but not here.
                        I do not think this is excusable behaviour by the manufacturers/importers.

                        (insert sad face here)
                        Stephen

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

                          Bummer! Cimbali also do a grinder called the max that has conical burrs, then flat burrs. Aside from the reputed grind quality advantage, another advantage is that it is supposedly cheaper to just replace the flat burrs, rather than needing to replace a whole conical burr set. Anyhoo, I tried to get in touch with them about it a while back and they seemed to know nothing about it.

                          I had a cadet for a little while at the beginning of the year; now it has gone up to sparkman in QLD. Like you said, its physically pretty big. I would have thought that the junior would be a physically smaller model ... certainly the one shown in the HB review seems smaller. The LC grinders also arent as well finished as many of the others, but who cares!

                          Regarding the pasquini/anfim grinders; yes, they are reputed to be fantastic quality, but for the money Id always want stepless. Why go for half measures?

                          If the knob adjustment mechanism appeals to you and size is a problem, you might want to look into the Nuova Simonelli MCF. This grinder is tiny, but well put together. It takes a fair while to grind, but is probably the quietest grinder that you can buy. The doser is not adjustable, but sweeps fairly clean. However, the doser seems to have a relatively flimsy feel and the thing retails for as much as a mini mazzer. Fantastic little grinder for home use, but for the money you can get something that grinds a little faster and has a beefier doser.

                          I think that most dosered grinders will require some modification to their dosers to get them to work the way that we want them to. The mazzer shoot left thing is something that Ive certainly gotten used to over the past few years ... ugh! You can either dose slowly and the grounds will just fall, or you can dose quickly enough to bounce the grounds off the opposite wall, or you can get a $1 piece of metal and make yourself a deflector ... which mazzer really should do at the factory! The only doser that Ive seen that seems to dose straight down is the BNZ. And Id imagine that a cause of a lot of the mess in most grinders is going to be grounds bouncing off each other because of static. The mazzer mechanisms certainly start off stiff, but get easier to adjust with time. I think that Dan was saying that the smallest repeatable adjustment will be about 2 seconds. The Junior probably wins out in this respect, but I cant really remember ever thinking that the mazzers werent adjustable enough. Dont forget that with all of these grinders, youll need to purge some grounds after you have switched settings.

                          Ive used heaps of mazzers, and use them all the time; dont want to sound like an apologist, but Id like to put the drawbacks in context. I think that it would be hard to go wrong with any of the great stepless grinders out there.

                          Cheers,

                          Luca

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

                            Thanks again Luca for your considered thoughts.

                            Coffex and/or La Cimbali will not import the Junior into Australia - for commercial reasons they tell me. The Cadet is a taller grinder and better specified (I doubt anyone in a home environment needs better than a Junior).

                            I have no qualms about the quality of the MM, just concerned about its height - it does seem that only the taller hopper is available in Australia. That is why I am researching the Anfim Best.

                            With regard to adjustment settings, someone who uses a Best claims that the stepped settings allow for a 2-3 second change in pour time, which is close to some stepless repeatability, isnt it?

                            I have posted a new thread about the Anfim Best - a query about modifying it. Please have a look!

                            Stephen

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: stepless vs stepped grinder

                              Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#11 date=1158709722
                              They sell the Cadet, an "upgraded" model with the option of automatic on/off.
                              Problem is, this is only sold with the larger and TALLER hopper (470mm).

                              (insert sad face here)
                              Stephen
                              be sad no longer stephen

                              The larger cadet hopper can easily have 70mm lopped off the top so that its total height would be 400mm. The original lid would still fit. A small amount of care an attention with your cutting intstrument of choice and the cadet could limbo under any standard height cupboard.

                              Im not aware of any other differences between the cadet and the jnr. Im sure they are mechanically identical, same burrs, motor, adjustment mechanism etc

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