Hi Grummer,
I use a K30 single at home and an Anfim Super Caimano Barista at work.
The K30 is not a stepped grinder. It has an adjustment collar and a lock down type screw that has a knob on it big enough to tighten with your hands.
The Super Caimano has the stepped adjuster but is timing adjustable down to 0.01 of a second as apposed to the K30 which only adjusts down to .01.
At work i sometimes wish i had a step between what it gives you but i can work around that with dose and tamping techniques along with machine temp.
Both have a decent group handle holder but the K30 will have trouble with unattended naked groups. The Anfim has designed their holder so that a naked sits in it perfectly without needing to be baby sat.
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Hi GrummerOriginally posted by Grummer View PostHI, been reading this thread, and have to say 'but what about the Mahlkoerig K30? its that a stepped grinder?...one of the best (for home) as they say...and it was used in the World Barista Competition....(or something - im new to the coffee world)...so i mean like....when some folks talk about the Anfim, then how far off is it compared to the K30??
enlightened me on this I mean is it the case which the Anfim don't have a vast selection of grind fine-ness available or something else
hmmm
ps I am considering an Anfim...but someone says that later on i might stumbled an elusive grit not available in between the steps...but then how much of a chance of this happening? I am going to use an older E61 Giotto which i obtained secondhand recently, and will try out different beans, but consume about a small bag 200-250 gm each week, and in addition, i plan to dabble in different beans one bag, once a month or so, to explore and have fun.
Mahlkonig K30 stepless is not really a home grinder: it is really aimed at cafes. Mahlkonig home range is up to / including the Vario...
The Barista Comp grinder (e.g. Matt Perger's 2013 one) from Mahlkonig is usually the EK43. More like a lab instrument with the appropriate specs & price.
Most stepped grinders have a total number of steps circa 25 for the whole grinding range from Turkish to plunger. That gives 2 or 3 steps within espresso range, which is nowhere near enough for discerning CSr's. The Vario has a total of 253 (11 macro * 23 micro "A to W") steps. As near as I can tell, no steps overlap in the espresso range: that is 1 W is a smidgen finer than 2 A. As I also use an ibrik for Turkish coffees, the Vario is the only home grinder I have encountered that also has several usable "Turkish coffee steps". FYI, Turkish grinds are a lot finer than traditional espresso, although a VST basket can use those grinds if you desire to up the extraction ratio and / or reduce the dose.
Stepped grinders with "salesman's 70 steps" within the espresso range like the Vario (in reality well over 50 steps anyway) make the whole stepped / stepless debate a little different. Once you dial in a stepless, most of their actual calibration marks are too coarse to repeat a setting easily. Clearly, the Vario's notches make that repetition a breeze. Using a LM Linea / 15g VST ridgeless / naked p/f every Vario micro setting is under one second a shot difference. FYI, I have never bothered to measure it more precisely as I usually move three or (many) more steps at a time during the initial setup. It is only at the "final fine tuning" that I use the single steps. To place that into perspective, using progressive tamping you can vary the same shot by well over 4 seconds. Playing with dosing provides the third control variable: from gusher to choked at will.
Another issue is that all grinders are optimised for some particular grinding size. To generalise, most cheap grinders are at their best for coarser (drip & plunger) grinds whilst more expensive grinders tend to be better at traditional espresso grinds. End result: a lot of the apparent steps are not that relevant anyway in terms of the quality of the grind (i.e. particle size variation goes to hell). Very few grinders are truly capable of Turkish: a bitter Turkish needs a lot more sugar and shows the grinder is generating too many fines at that setting... In the case of a Vario using the standard ceramic burrs it is uncompromisingly aimed at Turkish to espresso grind settings. As a result, it is only an average grinder at anything coarser than (say) macro 5, so a lot of the higher "available steps" are not that useful anyway. Recognising this, Mahlkonig actually offer an optional set of steel burrs for the Vario for those who wish to use coarser grinds (with a clearly stated loss of finer grind precision).
Other info: given your usage and one of my Varios, I would be changing the grind at least daily as the roast ages (assumption: starting with a fresh to day 4 roast). Usually by one step at a time whenever the pour becomes a little quick. FWIW, using my tamping method, I aim for 22 seconds to blonding (not counting preinfusion) with most medium SO roasts. When it nears 23 seconds adjust one notch finer and/or "initial tamp" a tad harder. After a bit of practise, eyeballing the speed of the pour tells you what to do...
Have fun with your quest.
TampIt
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HI, been reading this thread, and have to say 'but what about the Mahlkoerig K30? its that a stepped grinder?...one of the best (for home) as they say...and it was used in the World Barista Competition....(or something - im new to the coffee world)...so i mean like....when some folks talk about the Anfim, then how far off is it compared to the K30??
enlightened me on this I mean is it the case which the Anfim don't have a vast selection of grind fine-ness available or something else
hmmm
ps I am considering an Anfim...but someone says that later on i might stumbled an elusive grit not available in between the steps...but then how much of a chance of this happening? I am going to use an older E61 Giotto which i obtained secondhand recently, and will try out different beans, but consume about a small bag 200-250 gm each week, and in addition, i plan to dabble in different beans one bag, once a month or so, to explore and have fun.
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
That will vary according to the grinder. On the Mazzer Super Jolly you can vary the pour time by fractions of a second if you wish to get down to that level.Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#13 date=1158973147With regard to adjustment settings, someone who uses a Best claims that the stepped settings allow for a 2-3 second change in pour time, which is close to some stepless repeatability, isnt it?
Java "Gotta have a good grinder!" phile
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
You can cut down the mazzer hoppers, too. In fact, if you order a spare dosing chamber lid, you can cut down the hopper to the exact height to fit the lid to leave it looking stock.
The cadet has an auto start/stop thing that you could easily disable.
Not too sure; to tell you the truth, Ive never really timed grind differences. Sounds pretty good, but Ive heard from people that have used both that they would much prefer stepless. One thing thats for sure; if you buy a grinder with stepless adjustment, youll never be wondering and youll never be in the lurch. If I were you, I would want to try before buying.Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#13 date=1158973147With regard to adjustment settings, someone who uses a Best claims that the stepped settings allow for a 2-3 second change in pour time, which is close to some stepless repeatability, isnt it?
Cheers,
Luca
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Yep, good thinking!!! The sides of the hopper (except for the bottom 5cm or so) are straight. The hopper is fixed with 4 screws and is easy to remove.Originally posted by mauricem link=1158321141/0#14 date=1158978389
The larger cadet hopper can easily have 70mm lopped off the top so that its total height would be 400mm. The original lid would still fit. A small amount of care an attention with your cutting intstrument of choice and the cadet could limbo under any standard height cupboard.
You could possibly also buy a "spare" jnr hopper (they were sold here - once) and fit that, but reducing the height of the existing one would be a cheaper option for sure....
It would, IMHO, be well worth the effort. They are a great grinder.
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
be sad no longer stephenOriginally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#11 date=1158709722They sell the Cadet, an "upgraded" model with the option of automatic on/off.
Problem is, this is only sold with the larger and TALLER hopper (470mm).
(insert sad face here)
Stephen
The larger cadet hopper can easily have 70mm lopped off the top so that its total height would be 400mm. The original lid would still fit. A small amount of care an attention with your cutting intstrument of choice and the cadet could limbo under any standard height cupboard.
Im not aware of any other differences between the cadet and the jnr. Im sure they are mechanically identical, same burrs, motor, adjustment mechanism etc
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Thanks again Luca for your considered thoughts.
Coffex and/or La Cimbali will not import the Junior into Australia - for commercial reasons they tell me. The Cadet is a taller grinder and better specified (I doubt anyone in a home environment needs better than a Junior).
I have no qualms about the quality of the MM, just concerned about its height - it does seem that only the taller hopper is available in Australia. That is why I am researching the Anfim Best.
With regard to adjustment settings, someone who uses a Best claims that the stepped settings allow for a 2-3 second change in pour time, which is close to some stepless repeatability, isnt it?
I have posted a new thread about the Anfim Best - a query about modifying it. Please have a look!
Stephen
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Bummer! Cimbali also do a grinder called the max that has conical burrs, then flat burrs. Aside from the reputed grind quality advantage, another advantage is that it is supposedly cheaper to just replace the flat burrs, rather than needing to replace a whole conical burr set. Anyhoo, I tried to get in touch with them about it a while back and they seemed to know nothing about it.
I had a cadet for a little while at the beginning of the year; now it has gone up to sparkman in QLD. Like you said, its physically pretty big. I would have thought that the junior would be a physically smaller model ... certainly the one shown in the HB review seems smaller. The LC grinders also arent as well finished as many of the others, but who cares!
Regarding the pasquini/anfim grinders; yes, they are reputed to be fantastic quality, but for the money Id always want stepless. Why go for half measures?
If the knob adjustment mechanism appeals to you and size is a problem, you might want to look into the Nuova Simonelli MCF. This grinder is tiny, but well put together. It takes a fair while to grind, but is probably the quietest grinder that you can buy. The doser is not adjustable, but sweeps fairly clean. However, the doser seems to have a relatively flimsy feel and the thing retails for as much as a mini mazzer. Fantastic little grinder for home use, but for the money you can get something that grinds a little faster and has a beefier doser.
I think that most dosered grinders will require some modification to their dosers to get them to work the way that we want them to. The mazzer shoot left thing is something that Ive certainly gotten used to over the past few years ... ugh! You can either dose slowly and the grounds will just fall, or you can dose quickly enough to bounce the grounds off the opposite wall, or you can get a $1 piece of metal and make yourself a deflector ... which mazzer really should do at the factory! The only doser that Ive seen that seems to dose straight down is the BNZ. And Id imagine that a cause of a lot of the mess in most grinders is going to be grounds bouncing off each other because of static. The mazzer mechanisms certainly start off stiff, but get easier to adjust with time. I think that Dan was saying that the smallest repeatable adjustment will be about 2 seconds. The Junior probably wins out in this respect, but I cant really remember ever thinking that the mazzers werent adjustable enough. Dont forget that with all of these grinders, youll need to purge some grounds after you have switched settings.
Ive used heaps of mazzers, and use them all the time; dont want to sound like an apologist, but Id like to put the drawbacks in context. I think that it would be hard to go wrong with any of the great stepless grinders out there.
Cheers,
Luca
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Thanks heaps for your feedback, JavaB
I have tried to get a Cimbali Jnr, but Coffex (who sell them, but I am not sure who the importers/distributors are), say the Jnr is not available in Australia.
They sell the Cadet, an "upgraded" model with the option of automatic on/off.
Problem is, this is only sold with the larger and TALLER hopper (470mm).
Same problem exists with Mazzer hoppers in Australia - the shorter hopper is now standard in other countries, but not here.
I do not think this is excusable behaviour by the manufacturers/importers.
(insert sad face here)
Stephen
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Just completed a commercial machine Barista course during which we used a Mazzer Mini grinder..
With controlled tamp pressure (measured) the difference between a 10 second flow and choking the group was about three "notches" on the wheel ..... and it was a lot harder to turn to an exact setting than the La Cimbali
The La Cimbali takes about 7 turns of the adjustment knob to go from 10 second pour to 25 seconds......
It certainly is a much finer (and easier) adjustment on the La Cimbali ;D
The other thing the trainer recommended was a doser grinder.... turn the grinder on and dose straight into the basket whilst the grinder is running..... turn off when the basket is nearly full.... tap to pack down..... then empty the grounds left in the doser into the basket, level off and then tamp.
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Thanks JavaB - yep, I read that review long time ago - mandatory reading!
Stephen
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Yep,Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#7 date=1158400529Is a Jnr the same as a Cadet?
I think the cadet only comes with the smaller bean hopper where the Jnr came with an option of a higher hopper (which wont fit under most benches
).
Mine is the same as the current Cadet model..... and IMHO you couldnt get a better "espresso only" grinder.
You might also like to check this comparison:
http://www.home-barista.com/feature-spotlight-grinders.html
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Thanks Luca
I am not a complete novice - pulling daily shots with my Giotto for 3 years, and used a Rocky DL. You might know the Anfim by its better known rebadge Pasquini Moka - except that the Anfim Best is better specked - 300 watt motor - there is a reasonable users review on coffeegeek.
The comments here are making me rethink towards a Cimbali Jnr or stepless Macap. Mazzas throw to the left is a negative re mess for me. Is a Jnr the same as a Cadet?
Stephen
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Re: stepless vs stepped grinder
Hi Stephen,
Shopping for a grinder must be a fairly nail-biting experience for people who have never bought one before, particularly if you arent all that familiar with espresso machines. So many damned opinions on the internet ... who do you trust? If you actually get to try out some grinders, you have no real idea if differences were caused by you or the machine ... in fact, if you have never used espresso equipment before, stepped vs stepless probably wont make the slightest difference to you for at least the first three to six months, and thats presuming that you get some introductory training!
FWIW, I would NEVER go stepped again. Mazzers are great for switching repeatably between a few different types of beans. For example, if you take a felt-tipped pen and make a mark where your espresso setting is, you can switch to plunger grind and back again without many dramas. The Compak grinders adjust similarly, but Im yet to do any great playing with them. My favourite grinder of all time is the Brasilia Competition grinder, which has a locking screw that holds the burr carrier in place. Undo the screw and you can steplessly change the grind really easily. Lock it back in and youre good to go.
... so its pretty obvious that Id say to go stepless! You might not notice the difference at first, but its an investment in future coffee quality.
As for the Anfim Best ... I havent tried it, but Id caution you that price doesnt necessarily mean quality. It might be great; I dont know.
Glad to be of use! I have heard good things about the NEW doserless Compak, but am yet to try it. Be aware that most dosers are probably going to need some sort of modification to get them sweeping all of the grounds out, and many dosers shoot left.Originally posted by sdavies link=1158321141/0#3 date=1158325111I have decided on a doser rather than doserless after assessing numerous reviews - seems mess will be less and less clumping with a doser. Lucas insights have been very helpful in this regard.
Unfortunately, no-one has made the perfect grinder yet. It might not even be possible.
Cheers,
Luca
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