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Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

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  • #16
    Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

    I think the only real comparison can be done at the top end. Where most of us sit with prosumer grinders, there isnt really a comparable conical in the same price bracket as the flats. At the bottom end, you do have a conical that can compare favourably with the other flats, but its suspect construction is a handicap.

    When price is a contributing factor, and there is a significant price difference between flat and conical, theres an implicit quality difference.

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    • #17
      Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

      Well said Nunu.

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      • #18
        Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

        Originally posted by nunu link=1197961695/15#15 date=1198478824
        When price is a contributing factor, and there is a significant price difference between flat and conical, theres an implicit quality difference.
        And I honestly believe that is possibly the most significant factor.... not the actual shape of the burrs....

        My LC Jnr had genuine DRM flat burrs... which were getting a little tired...
        Replaced them with "aftermarket" burrs (which looked identical) but cost 1/3 of the price of the genuine article.... flavour in the cup dropped drastically....
        Went and spent $125 on genuine burrs.... and flavour returned - even better than with the tired old burrs!!

        The DRM conical/flat grinder which Ive just bought does a great job.... which is why Schomer used them in his cafes... The main grinding is done by 68mm flat burrs with large fine and medium grinding areas.... no bean breaking area as that is done by the conical burr..... And the coffee does taste fantastic.... but the LCJnr is a $1200 grinder... so my guess is the DRM with its belt drive and combined burr set was probably in the price bracket of the WBC and Robur when new.... and like them it has the best quality burrs and fantastically robust construction.... no play anywhere!!

        The same DRM burr set is used in the Versalab M3.... where it also does a remarkable job by all accounts.... but costs something like US$1500 without a doser or even a bean hopper.... and that is a flat burred grinder (with conical bean breaker)....

        On the conical side, there are also significant quality differences within the cheaper end of the price range.... for example the KG100 burrset (conical) has only bean breaking and fine grinding portions... there is no medium grinding area like all other conicals (including the Sunbeam)..... it is obviously cheaper to produce a conical burr with only 2 zones...

        So cost affects the quality of the bits... especially the burr quality.... and that affects the flavour in the cup - more so I believe - than the actual conical vs flat issue.

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        • #19
          Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

          Dont forget you need to break in your burrs with like 20kg of coffee.

          That will be the first thing Ill do on my WBC Compak when I get it...run 20kg of rubbish coffee through it.

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          • #20
            Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

            That sounds like a wives tale David.
            Do please explain.

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            • #21
              Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

              Originally posted by Thundergod link=1197961695/15#19 date=1198485725
              That sounds like a wives tale David.
              Yep, Im with you....

              I put through about a kilo of cr@p coffee to clean and season the burrs etc..... but thats about it.

              If they have been properly formed during the grinding process, I dont believe there is any need to "wear them in".....

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              • #22
                Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                First Ive ever heard of "breaking in" burrs. I would have thought that by their nature they do their best work when sharp.

                Twenty kilos of beans is in excess of a years use for many people.

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                • #23
                  Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                  I think he got grinders mixed up with roasters - probably too much egg nog

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                  • #24
                    Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                    Originally posted by Dennis link=1197961695/15#22 date=1198494474
                    probably too much egg nog
                    Well - it is Christmas ;D ;D ;D ;D

                    I use the cr@p beans to remove any oily film or other preservatives which might be on the burrs following manufacture. I suppose you could use some detergent and a scrubbing brush of some sort - but that just doesnt appeal to me.....

                    Ive always got some garbage beans lying around.... so I figure sacrificial beans is the go! (Probably not even a kilo when I think about it).

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                    • #25
                      Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                      Right....the main reason why one would want to do this is to season the grinder. Has anyone seen brand new burrs before? Theyre not very nice. Burrs can go through hundreds of kilos of coffee before needing to be changed.

                      The main reason why Ill be doing it....the grinder Im getting is for barista training...and I dont want "out of box" problems when its most crucial.

                      So I was exaggerating...20kg is excessive....I just wanted to see the reaction...its more like a couple of kilos.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                        What sort of problems David?

                        I was thinking the same as Robusto.
                        New burrs = sharp
                        Old burrs = dull (need replacing)

                        By definition, the more use they get the blunter they get.

                        So what sort of problems do you get from a new set of burrs when they wont ever be any sharper?

                        (I must have been very lucky or missed seeing all the problems my Macap must have had out of the box.)

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                        • #27
                          Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                          First of, if you look at new burrs, youll see lots of loose metal crapolla everywhere. We need to get rid of this stuff. Secondly, you cant pull consistent shots on an espresso bar with new burrs. Home baristas tend to make a few coffees at a time and dont spend enough time to notice it. Once you loose all the metal and break in the burrs a little, the barista job becomes a little easier.

                          I borrowed a Makin Espresso machine and Mazzer Mini for Xmas as I am machine-less...the Mini just came out of the box can do with a proper seasoning to break the burrs in.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                            OK, I can understand the cleaning out bit, as also mentioned by JavaB, but I dont think youve yet explained what you mean by seasoning breaks the burrs in.
                            What does the seasomning do?
                            What is the difference before and after?

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                            • #29
                              Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                              I would think the best way to "season" burrs is to run through some dried chillies, a handful of rock salt and a dozen peppercorns.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                                Originally posted by luca link=1197961695/0#14 date=1198475333
                                I havent timed it, but Nim rates the difference at about five seconds; ie. the K10 can extract for 5 seconds longer than the major could. The big conicals also seem to strike a lot of people as relatively easy to dial in. These differences arent subtle; theyre a smack in the face. You can see them without getting out your stopwatch.
                                I worked a shift a week at the Maling Room for +/- 3 months... so Im far from being an expert on conicals in a commercial world. More like a joker with half a clue!!! ;D ... But I did notice the pours from the Compak K10 were superior to the Mazor Major. Longer duration of extraction, more consistent colour throughout the shot. And frigging fast to grind a double shot worth of beans (5-7secs as opposed to 18+ secs at home with my Mini-E).
                                Dont know if others feel the same, but I prefer the softness of the Compaks dosing lever to the stiff Mazer. Makes it easier to work on all day. Prob more a personal preference.

                                side note: the champion in lenght of pour is the LM Swift. Its like the energiser bunny... the pours just keep going and going!

                                I would love to have a decent conical grinder for home.


                                p.s. with regards to conicals being easier to dial in... dont know about that. Last week at a dinner at the Maling Room, it took me 4 attempts and I still couldnt dial in the shot. Greg (kaanage) was watching and I almost died of embarrassment. Sorry Greg, I blame da wine!!!

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