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Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

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  • #31
    Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

    Originally posted by Thundergod link=1197961695/15#27 date=1198501218
    OK, I can understand the cleaning out bit, as also mentioned by JavaB, but I dont think youve yet explained what you mean by seasoning breaks the burrs in.
    What does the seasomning do?
    What is the difference before and after?
    Ive also heard about blades needing to be run in or seasoned?
    Following on from Nims post, the blades in one of the K10s were changed last week and it took a day or two - 30kg or so for those trying to figure out our usage for the grind to become consistent.
    Id pull a decent shot and the next was terrible - same dose, tamp etc and only a few seconds apart and it was like that all day.

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    • #32
      Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

      Originally posted by robusto link=1197961695/15#28 date=1198551172
      I would think the best way to "season" burrs is to run through some dried chillies, a handful of rock salt and a dozen peppercorns.
      ;D ;D ;D ;D

      Must try that! - NOT!!!

      But I do believe "seasoning" the burrs is valid..... just like after you have chemically back flushed the group..... you have coffee passing over bare metal (assuming you have scrubbed the burr set with detergent to remove the protective oils etc)....

      During the "seasoning" the burrs are coated with a layer of coffee oils and some of the grinds lodge in gaps in the burrs (for example around the fixing screws)..... yep, both will become stale quickly but both are a fact of life...... and need to be stabilised.

      The oils on the burrs probably make the beans move more easily through the burr set, and once the "retention" of grinds has stabilised - the yield of grinds from a measured dose of whole beans will be consistent.... Also if you have completely cleaned your grinder (and why wouldnt you when replacing the burr set)..... the metallic smell is replaced by the glorious aroma of coffee after "seasoning"..... does this actually make a difference in the cup? I dont really know.... but for the cost of about a kilo of junk beans I feel it is worthwhile......

      So in my case the beans remove the protective oils left on the burrs from manufacture and replace them with coffee oils.... hence "seasoning" the burrs..... establishing the surface which will be used to grind many, many kilos of beans

      Producing quality coffee is all about consistency - in EVERY step of the process...... and making the grinder operation consistent by vertue of "seasoning" is part of that process.

      And I would think commercial conical burrs (with larger surface area and much slower speed rotation - about the same speed as my DRM conical/flat) - would take longer to season.

      The DRM produces much "fluffier" grinds than the LC jnr.... requiring a heaped dose in the basket for correct tamping..... (the basket actually taking 1-2 grams more)..... and the adjustment seems easier but the size of the required adjustment between beans or with ageing of the beans is larger..... Does that agree with the commercial conicals?

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      • #33
        Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

        OK JavaB, your explanation makes more sense than anything else so far.
        However, you are still talking 1kg of sacrificial beans and some othera are talking 20 - 30kg.
        Hence my still calling it a wives tale without some kind of empirical proof.

        Could it be that any new piece of equipment takes some getting used too?
        Even if its the same make/model or even the same machine with new burrs?

        I recently acquired an EM6910 for work and it took 3 shots to get a decent pour out of it first go.
        After using the 6900 for a few months that was unexpected.

        At the Aroma Festival when I was changed to the VBM from the Expobar I did worse than day one with brand new equipment a year ago; and at that time Id never fired a shot in anger before (except at my barista course).
        I couldnt dial in the grinder, I couldnt find the right level of coffee in the basket.

        I think some of its psychological.
        And maybe some is a conspiracy to sell more beans.

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        • #34
          Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

          You must have gone after me at Aroma. I spent most of the time trying to dial the grinder in for a "tight" shot. I also had a tough time volume-wise dosing for the VBM.

          I think were getting a bit away from the original topic.

          Both flat and conical grinders have their place. Not everyone can have a combi oven in their kitchen, so they have to make due with a conventional. Both produce a similar result. Some prefer one over the other.

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          • #35
            Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

            I dont think weve gone off topic.
            Ive added more ideas both for and against.

            I did go after you, I was in the final remember, and you werent.  :P

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            • #36
              Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

              Too much eggnog TG, who would go after a Guinea pig wearing a pancake for a hat?

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              • #37
                Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                I always thouight it was a guinea pig sandwich.
                Yum.

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                • #38
                  Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                  I had a quick browse through and havent seen H-Bs Titan Grinder Project mentioned... its a big conical vs. flat burr pros, cons, and general shootout of a bunch of big conicals. 13 odd pages of worthwhile reading I thought: http://www.home-barista.com/forums/t...ect-t4126.html

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                  • #39
                    Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                    Jon have a look at this...

                    http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/titan-grinder-project-can-it-beat-mazzer-robur-t4499.html

                    a $300 grinder comes very close to a $5000 grinder in shot quality.  Conical burr set I guess.



                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                      Originally posted by 2B3A3D322D3A480 link=1197961695/38#38 date=1266700095
                      a $300 grinder comes very close to a $5000 grinder in shot quality.Conical burr set I guess.
                      For Sale- 2 x Mazzer Robur-e. Will swap for 2 x Lux ...or maybe not :  ;D

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                        I Might consider swapping one of my secondhand DRMs for a Robur E But nah I am a happy user of a conical flat burr set but I wouldnt say no to a Robur

                        For Syphon and manual brewing however I reckon the little Ascaso is a more consistant on course grind. Sometimes high tech and high performance is not best.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                          Originally posted by 564F595B3A0 link=1197961695/14#14 date=1198475333
                          I dont think that I will have a nice big conical on my bench any time soon, but that doesnt mean that Im going to try to fool myself that it wouldnt produce a better cup. Instead, I take the point of view that the grinders that I sensibly have access to dont do a bad job and that the ultimate determinant of whats in the cup is the coffee that one uses. Putting better coffee into my grinder isnt anywhere near as financially daunting as putting a robur on my bench!
                          [sic]

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                          • #43
                            Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                            Haha. Runfast, thats cruel! (I once stumbled upon a post from Chris saying that he wouldnt be stocking the [then newly imported] Compak K3T. Didnt trust Spanish manufacturing, apparently! :P)

                            To be fair, Luca didnt rule it out, and I doubt hed disagree with anything he said (I certainly dont).

                            Cheers
                            Stuart.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                              Originally posted by 2324253122243722313E24500 link=1197961695/42#42 date=1266783364
                              Haha. Runfast, thats cruel! (I once stumbled upon a post from Chris saying that he wouldnt be stocking the [then newly imported] Compak K3T. Didnt trust Spanish manufacturing, apparently! :P)

                              To be fair, Luca didnt rule it out, and I doubt hed disagree with anything he said (I certainly dont).

                              Cheers
                              Stuart.
                              Hmm...I do recall saying that I thought it was just as good as the Mazzer mini-e but at 1/2 the price? I do also recall saying that I thought it was the category killer in the price bracket. I dont recall saying I didnt like them and wouldnt stock them and in fact we have stocked them since the very first small air freight shipment into Australia.

                              The then importer, Diamond services was on us to sell their Italia machine and we refused. I always thought it was a Chinalian machine and at that point it was rubbish in my opinion.

                              I still believe that the K3T is far superior to the Rocky and have no doubt that it is well worth the small extra spend over the price of a Rocky...

                              Chris

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                              • #45
                                Re: Pros and Cons - Flat versus Conical Burrs

                                Originally posted by 3B3C3D293A3C2F3A29263C480 link=1197961695/42#42 date=1266783364
                                Haha. Runfast, thats cruel!
                                Cruel? I quoted this to point out that:

                                a) Large conical grinders probably will produce a better cup.1
                                b) They are out of reach for many at the present time.
                                c) Make the most of what you have with the best coffee you can afford - if you can afford a Kony/Robur then problem solved.

                                1 Anfim Super Caimano v 2.0 excluded

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