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  • #16
    Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

    It would be an interesting execise to get "Friendly Barista" to share his / her experience.

    It would also be Ironic if said "Friendy Barista" was an award winning one.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

      Originally posted by 366971676C676B6262616169656A040 link=1246006661/8#8 date=1246023619
      Hi Emo,

      I think you can safely inform him that he is no barista.
      Dont think I will be doing this.  

      Originally posted by 696969676B62626161040 link=1246006661/12#12 date=1246029598
      Unfortunatley this guy is neither wise or a gifted Batista. Rather is just notherguy who stands behind his machine trying to make coffee.  
      Perhaps not wise, but he made the coffee that sent me looking for forums such as this one. I also respectfully disagree with your last sentence.  

      Originally posted by 506C716A606176636B60040 link=1246006661/10#10 date=1246024352
      emo wrote on Yesterday at 6:57pm:
      His reasoning was the final product would not be distinguishable to even most coffee connoisseurs
      I think even I could rustle up more than a few people to prove this to be nothing more than a bold boast.
      Could be just a boast, would it be possible to get quality from an $200 grinder to match that of a $1k grinder? Even if inconsistantly?

      Originally posted by 506C716A606176636B60040 link=1246006661/10#10 date=1246024352
      You say that the one barista youve spoken to contradicts what a lot of people here have said.
      So do you believe the barista merely because you spoke to them in person?
      Naturally, one would be more inclined to believe someone infront of them than in cyberspace epecially if they are ignorant on a subject (like me). Having said this I wouldnt be trying to find answers in this forum nor still be considering the M4D if I didnt have my doubts.

      Originally posted by 43766163536B7669656860040 link=1246006661/13#13 date=1246030326
      Especially as it also sounds like he doesnt care about the quantity of grinds either, and made cappucinos, (steamed milk and cocoa powder) to further distract from the coffee taste.
      He was only refering to cappuccinos as mentioned in my first post.

      Originally posted by 5775716D7676616863766D74040 link=1246006661/15#15 date=1246072640
      It would also be Ironic if said "Friendy Barista" was an award winning one. Wink
      Had a quick look, his cafe was award 23/25 one year in the sydney coffee guide, has previously won favourite cafe in SMH good food. Thats all I could find.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

        Originally posted by 646C6E010 link=1246006661/0#0 date=1246006661
        I asked him about the M4D and his thoughts on other grinders he would recommend. He smirked at me and said, Ive got the M4D and its a beaut but its far from necessary (for a cappuccino). His reasoning was the final product would not be distinguishable to even most coffee connoisseurs He said the only reason why he bought the M4D was to try it out. It is clean and quick and that was basically it. I questioned him about the temperatures, dose etc.
        His reply was - "to be honest all this business about bur temperature, clumps, exact amounts to the gram etc is really nonsense to all but maybe a handful of people in Australia. The tamper is important, but you only need a cheap grinder to get almost identical results. He then went on to tell me of a simple test he uses all the time using his $200 Delonghi. Apparently when fellow coffee lovers come over for a cuppa at his place. He pretended to use one of his high end grinders and switches to the Delonghi and nobody is the wiser. They then spend the next 10 minutes raving on about the flavours, aromas etc etc. He says only 2 persons have ever mentioned anything, and it was in the same group which to him, it simply could have been a bad pull.
        Sounds like his customers may only *think* that theyre connoisseurs and perhaps his dinner party coffee is uniformly merde and hes simply lucky that his guests are polite...

        Your mate is both misinformed and opinionated. Sounds like he needs to do some espresso palate work and learn something to me. What about better grinders and real coffee?

        Cue the moccona ad and while I queue in Sydney to grab a shot from the EM0450/Mirage combo :

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

          Hey emo got some interesting feedback to ur question. As discussed if he didnt tell anyone they were guinnee pigs for his new grinder, had nothing else there to compare it will and also knew their friend worked in an "award winning" cafe, I probably cant blame them for not saying anything, can u??
          There are levels of grinders and prices but a cheap grinder will always taste different to a more expensive grinder. Our best advice is go visit some sponsors<<<<<<<< and look at them and have a play and test for yourself. This will highlight the differences and what grinder works for u and your budget.
          Good luck and enjoy the journey!!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

            Originally posted by 7D7577180 link=1246006661/16#16 date=1246111470
            Thundergod wrote on 26. Jun 2009 at 23:52:
            emo wrote on Yesterday at 6:57pm:
            His reasoning was the final product would not be distinguishable to even most coffee connoisseurs
            I think even I could rustle up more than a few people to prove this to be nothing more than a bold boast.


            Could be just a boast, would it be possible to get quality from an $200 grinder to match that of a $1k grinder? Even if inconsistantly?
            It would be possible to fluke it I suppose, but highly unlikely.

            Originally posted by 7D7577180 link=1246006661/16#16 date=1246111470
            Thundergod wrote on 26. Jun 2009 at 23:52:
            You say that the one barista youve spoken to contradicts what a lot of people here have said.
            So do you believe the barista merely because you spoke to them in person?


            Naturally, one would be more inclined to believe someone infront of them than in cyberspace epecially if they are ignorant on a subject (like me).
            As I suspected. (My question was almost rhetorical.)

            Originally posted by 7D7577180 link=1246006661/16#16 date=1246111470
            Having said this I wouldnt be trying to find answers in this forum nor still be considering the M4D if I didnt have my doubts.
            Good. Do as suggested and try some grinders for yourself.
            Coffee taste is subjective; you have to find what you like.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

              Geniune question & genuine barista.

              Appreciate those who gave constructive advice ;D

              cheers,
              emo

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                Originally posted by 363E3C530 link=1246006661/0#0 date=1246006661

                Whats really been bugging me is what my local Barista said to me today... I will not mention the baristas name or where he works as I do not wish to alienate him.....

                ... I questioned him about the temperatures, dose etc.
                His reply was - "to be honest all this business about bur temperature, clumps, exact amounts to the gram etc is really nonsense to all but maybe a handful of people in Australia. The tamper is important, but you only need a cheap grinder to get almost identical results. He then went on to tell me of a simple test he uses all the time using his $200 Delonghi. Apparently when fellow coffee lovers come over for a cuppa at his place. He pretended to use one of his high end grinders and switches to the Delonghi and nobody is the wiser. They then spend the next 10 minutes raving on about the flavours, aromas etc etc. He says only 2 persons have ever mentioned anything, and it was in the same group which to him, it simply could have been a bad pull.

                Is there any weight in his opinion?
                To start, his "test" is nonsense. it would only be valuable if done with two cups, same coffee, made from grinds from the two grinders, when tasted side-by-side. The "testers" walked into a shop which uses different equipment and different beans than they use at home, and depending on their expertise and experience, the coffee would taste different, which is often recognized as "better" because the tester EXPECTS it to be better. it is like so many people come back from Italy and rave about the espresso there.

                This test could be turned around this way- his espresso is so bad even with a high-quality grinder that when he switches to an economy basic grinder it tastes the same-- just as bad. The result could be a condemnation of his espresso and not a quantification of how the grinder does not matter.

                I went from a Rocky to a Mazzer Kony and the difference was dramatic. So much so that I had to change my blend to suit my taste. Do a search on the coffee forum of your choice and you will find plenty of reports of the same sort of experiences from others as well.

                Clumping is important- or more accurately, the lack thereof. Clumping causes inaccuracy in distribution and dose, and is a quick way to introduce channeling. He probably does not use bottomless portafilters and so may not even realize that he is getting channeling.

                Bottom line - If I went into a shop and found the barrista was doing ANYTHING that compromised the quality of espresso they were producing I would find another shop. I just paid for a food product, and my expectation would be that they would do their best to make it the best way they could. IMO, he might as well started his discussion with you as, "Wait till I tell you how I screwed some customers..."

                Ya.. Im picky about my food, and give little value to anyone who screws with it.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                  Originally posted by 5A69666C71574F26080 link=1246006661/22#22 date=1246121311
                  Bottom line - If I went into a shop and found the barrista was doing ANYTHING that compromised the quality of espresso they were producing I would find another shop. I just paid for a food product, and my expectation would be that they would do their best to make it the best way they could. IMO, he might as well started his discussion with you as, "Wait till I tell you how I screwed some customers..."

                  Ya.. Im picky about my food, and give little value to anyone who screws with it.
                  For the record I never mentioned he does anything like this at the cafe.

                  cheers

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                    Coffee certainly is subjective and everyone thinks they know good coffee especially those that drink "The 48 Beans"

                    You really do have to try the different grinders using the same coffee.

                    In my search for my new gear I had one retailer not even let me see the machine working another who handed me a shot that was poured way to fast and tasted flat. I would have expected him to say "Oh got that one wrong" and poured me another.

                    Still horses for courses


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                      Originally posted by 0C3F303A270119705E0 link=1246006661/22#22 date=1246121311
                      To start, his "test" is nonsense. it would only be valuable if done with two cups, same coffee, made from grinds from the two grinders, when tasted side-by-side.  The "testers" walked into a shop which uses different equipment and different beans than they use at home, and depending on their expertise and experience, the coffee would taste different, which is often recognized as "better" because the tester EXPECTS it to be better. it is like so many people come back from Italy and rave about the espresso there.

                      This test could be turned around this way- his espresso is so bad even with a high-quality grinder that when he switches to an economy basic grinder it tastes the same-- just as bad. The result could be a condemnation of his espresso and not a quantification of how the grinder does not matter.

                      I went from a Rocky to a Mazzer Kony and the difference was dramatic. So much so that I had to change my blend to suit my taste. Do a search on the coffee forum of your choice and you will find plenty of reports of the same sort of experiences from others as well.

                      Clumping is important- or more accurately, the lack thereof. Clumping causes inaccuracy in distribution and dose, and is a quick way to introduce channeling. He probably does not use bottomless portafilters and so may not even realize that he is getting channeling.

                      Bottom line - If I went into a shop and found the barista was doing ANYTHING that compromised the quality of espresso they were producing I would find another shop. I just paid for a food product, and my expectation would be that they would do their best to make it the best way they could. IMO, he might as well started his discussion with you as, "Wait till I tell you how I screwed some customers..."

                      Ya.. Im picky about my food, and give little value to anyone who screws with it.
                      You couldnt have said it more succinctly Randy....Im with you 100% on that one...

                      2mcm

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                        Originally posted by 4A42402F0 link=1246006661/0#0 date=1246006661
                        He then went on to tell me of a simple test he uses all the time using his $200 Delonghi. Apparently when fellow coffee lovers come over for a cuppa at his place. He pretended to use one of his high end grinders and switches to the Delonghi and nobody is the wiser.  

                        Sorry but I have experiences snake oil sails people all to often...   Every one has their own likes and dislikes... At a cupping session yesterday... Some almost spat out some coffee when made as an espresso, while others only had strange looks, while others savoured the experience and looked for the changes that might suggest the best way to manage a very exciting bean.

                        As to fellow coffee lovers...  Some of my friends are very passionate but any thing other than Pablo is crap to them..   Thus his test is again flawed.

                        While it takes a little effort, I am well aware that a Good person behind the equipment (Will not use the term Barista)  can produce great coffee from the most basic equipment..  And I mean stuff like the cheep Aldi units...

                        Can they do 10 shots in a row...  NO....   But it does come down to the term "Fit for purpose".

                        As to Does a grinder matter that much...  Fit for Purpose...  Thus ease of use, cleaning, hopper size, over all size, dosing or not, etc etc etc...    OH and then there is the fool that is running it...  PEBKAC affects all systems.

                        In addition as per the following...

                        Originally posted by 7D4E414B567068012F0 link=1246006661/22#22 date=1246121311
                        To start, his "test" is nonsense. it would only be valuable if done with two cups, same coffee, made from grinds from the two grinders, when tasted side-by-side.  etc etc etc

                        A: I guess he has his Delonghi just sitting there as a back up ???    :
                        B:  If it is so good, why does he not use it all the time ?   :-?
                        C:  Or why does he not get a cheaper blade grinder from Delonghi ??  8-)


                        Or is it; that he has his normal Grinder running with a full hopper full of stale beans and when he does his test!!!  He puts fresh beans into teh Delonghi  


                        At the end of teh day..  A grinder does and will make a difference, as to how much and why...  Then it all depends on the Use and expected outcomes...

                        Note: We often make generalisations about many things..  In particular when trying to impress/ look smart OR feel that the receiver may not understand all the other issues that impact on the outcome...

                        However here at CS    ;D  Unless you clearly state so....  We will challenge any fact as a matter of good debate and for rigour...  To ensure that things can be validated.


                        I need a coffee...  Now where did I put that old dirty spice grinder ???  

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                          Originally posted by 363E3C530 link=1246006661/23#23 date=1246124959
                          Originally posted by 5A69666C71574F26080 link=1246006661/22#22 date=1246121311
                          Bottom line - If I went into a shop and found the barrista was doing ANYTHING that compromised the quality of espresso they were producing I would find another shop. ...
                          For the record I never mentioned he does anything like this at the cafe.

                          I combined the two portions of your story (the baristas home vs. shop techniques and equipment). It confused me.

                          Let me restate my opinion on this matter for the record:

                          Any barista that states that grinder quality does not matter, regardless of what beverage is created (discounting the hot milkshakes that pass for coffee in the States), needs more:
                          1 -  experience
                          2 -  knowledge
                          3 -  training
                          4 -  sense
                          5 - all of the above

                          When I got my Kony (which replaced a Rocky), my wife immediately could taste the difference in her cappuccino. her total sum nomenclature for describing coffee taste is:
                          - too coffeeish
                          - its bitter
                          - MMmmmmmmmmmm, good.
                          I changed the burrs in Rocky about every two years or so.

                          And since the Kony arrived to mate up with the VBM DS, she says, "Its always good."

                          You might want to take a look at the grinder test done on Home Barista.com. They did electron microscope analysis of the particle distribution range of a number of top line grinders as well as blind taste testing. The Kony I own is the one used in that test (I was not involved with the testing).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                            Amen AM well put

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                              Originally posted by 4C4446290 link=1246006661/0#0 date=1246006661
                              but for the record (according to the forum) a few CS regulars in this forum have bought beans from him on more than a few occasions.

                              lol
                              Some members obviously already respect him and his judgement. Gotta say tho there is a HUGE difference between the EM0480 and the Mazzer Mini.

                              And
                              Originally posted by 4C4446290 link=1246006661/0#0 date=1246006661
                              He then went on to tell me of a simple test he uses all the time using his $200 Delonghi. Apparently when fellow coffee lovers come over for a cuppa at his place. He pretended to use one of his high end grinders and switches to the Delonghi and nobody is the wiser. They then spend the next 10 minutes raving on about the flavours, aromas etc etc. He says only 2 persons have ever mentioned anything, and it was in the same group which to him, it simply could have been a bad pull.
                              Maybe he really is a good Barista and is able to get the very best out of both grinders. He would also have both grinders dialed in Perfectly Im guessing. ;D

                              This is probably stretching it a bit but even funnier is some CS members have been to his house and had been apart of this test.

                              Im picking it will the 2 that said "Hymm bad pull" :-?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Does a grinder really matter that much.

                                Originally posted by 3830325D0 link=1246006661/0#0 date=1246006661
                                Whats really been bugging me is what my local Barista said to me today which was quite contrary to the impression ive taken from this site
                                To get back to your OP, you will come across advice contrary to commonly held beliefs all the time. This is a good thing as we cling to such beliefs then we dont really develop.

                                Im not sure of your dilemma in this situation. What they barista has related sounds plausible but I would like to know the full conditions in which he conducts his test. He may have it dialed in such a way that it provides a great shot for the beans and machine he uses all the time.

                                If I were to arrive on this site wondering what grinder to buy I would (and have) buy the best grinder I could afford. Chances are a cheaper grinder could provide an equally good shot. But consistently, for any bean type, for any machine type? I will reserve my judgment.

                                Not having tried the DeLonghi grinder in question, I wont comment on its quality.

                                Comment

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