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Rising popularity of EK43s in cafés

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  • #16
    My price of $4500 OZ came from the online ad from Sensory Labs Australian site, the price is in fact $4300.

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    • #17
      $4,400 ..... Salvatore must be reading this thread and put the price up accordingly!! :-D ......Over 4.5k if you can't pick it up.....:-(

      Good read from Dublin and there's more on Google.

      One thing from the Dublin post .....
      "The potential is massive in terms of taste, wastage, consistency and speed but for now we’re not quite sold.
      I accept a large part of this may be just down to the fact that it looks ugly as hell and seems so so wrong but
      I’m adamant that it needs more testing/tasting first."

      Can't agree that its ugly tho' , don't mind the look of it, nice retro feel.
      Last edited by chokkidog; 17 February 2014, 04:12 PM. Reason: add quote

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      • #18
        Ahh....So a flat burr bag grinder is better than a dedicated grind on demand or doser conical. Must be brilliant for work rate and turnover.

        Hipsters being different for the sake of being different...Lemmings following.

        Perhaps I'll blog to say that if I kneel and face ENE whilst chewing on a nasturtium that it will deliver a definite, superior result in the cup...

        If they d1ck around with the coffee any more, you'll need to book your coffee a week ahead.

        I'll keep my Kony-E thanks.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
          Ahh....So a flat burr bag grinder is better than a dedicated grind on demand or doser conical. Must be brilliant for work rate and turnover.

          Hipsters being different for the sake of being different...Lemmings following.

          If they d1ck around with the coffee any more, you'll need to book your coffee a week ahead.

          I'll keep my Kony-E thanks.
          Cant speak with any authority on the subject, however I suspect Chris may well have uttered a few words of wisdom in this post.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
            Ahh....So a flat burr bag grinder is better than a dedicated grind on demand or doser conical. Must be brilliant for work rate and turnover.

            Hipsters being different for the sake of being different...Lemmings following.

            Perhaps I'll blog to say that if I kneel and face ENE whilst chewing on a nasturtium that it will deliver a definite, superior result in the cup...

            If they d1ck around with the coffee any more, you'll need to book your coffee a week ahead.

            I'll keep my Kony-E thanks.

            Pretty big burr set though Chris "98mm" not sure of the rpm, still think it will be interesting to see where it goes after some extensive bench testing.

            Get those refractometers out and let us all know what those dissolved sugars are doing.

            A couple of coffee operators to offer an open invitation doing side by side blind bench testing with the Mahlkong a Robur a Kony and a BNZ md74 (Im happy to loan my BNZ) would be a great step to offer some perspective to both sides of the argument.

            Happy to enter into this next stage of coffee exploration with an open mind and willing taste buds. I recognise change is a constant but only worthwhile if it offers an improvement, so lets wait and see because at the end of the day the proof is in the cup.

            Chester

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
              Ahh....So a flat burr bag grinder is better than a dedicated grind on demand or doser conical. Must be brilliant for work rate and turnover.

              Hipsters being different for the sake of being different...Lemmings following.

              Perhaps I'll blog to say that if I kneel and face ENE whilst chewing on a nasturtium that it will deliver a definite, superior result in the cup...

              If they d1ck around with the coffee any more, you'll need to book your coffee a week ahead.

              I'll keep my Kony-E thanks.
              So correct me if I'm wrong, but Chris is not a fan of the idea. Nice.

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              • #22
                Agreed Chris, Yelta and Chester, I think the overall direction of a thread like this can be very misleading to a lot of people.

                A cursory read might lead someone to think that a Robur, Kony, Major or other commercial or prosumer grinders make bad coffee.

                Nothing could be further from the truth.

                Maybe it's more like a grinder such as this masks the sourness and over bright, citric acidity of the light roasts that these guys are using?

                After all, it's the one key element in the discussion that we have little knowledge of and it would be a mistake to apply the roasts we like
                individually, to the results being reported. We already know that big flat burrs (these ones go @ +/- 1500rpm) emphasise sweeter base notes,
                whilst conicals bring out more fruitiness.........

                And from a relevant but different perspective.......

                If you've seen the videos in the links above then check this one out and envisage what would happen if they changed their grinder.

                Australian Cafes - Putting Slayer to the Test on Vimeo

                ....courtesy of member sidewayss' from the amazing videos thread. ( just tried to open the video from the link...... some computer gymnastics might be required)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by chokkidog View Post
                  ....I think the overall direction of a thread like this can be very misleading to a lot of people.

                  A cursory read might lead someone to think that a Robur, Kony, Major or other commercial or prosumer grinders make bad coffee.

                  Nothing could be further from the truth.

                  Maybe it's more like a grinder such as this masks the sourness and over bright, citric acidity of the light roasts that these guys are using?

                  After all, it's the one key element in the discussion that we have little knowledge of and it would be a mistake to apply the roasts we like
                  individually, to the results being reported. We already know that big flat burrs (these ones go @ +/- 1500rpm) emphasise sweeter base notes,
                  whilst conicals bring out more fruitiness.........

                  And from a relevant but different perspective.......

                  If you've seen the videos in the links above then check this one out and envisage what would happen if they changed their grinder.

                  Australian Cafes - Putting Slayer to the Test on Vimeo............
                  Yes and you could look at it this way:

                  As everyone knows what happens in comps has not much to do with what happens in real life cafe business, except for the "rub off" effect of people picking up on stuff that happens there and wanting to bring it into the cafe world, and of course the desire to upgrade the quality of what is sold in cafes. No problem.

                  And in this case you have a high level competitor who for whatever reason (and I surmise it is because he wanted a certain character to come through into his competition espresso, with the particular competition beans he brought along) used an EK43.

                  The comp is in effect, a "one off" laboratory excercise conducted under very controlled conditions. Can this be emulated in a real world cafe situation, where real world effects are taking place such as the ever changing nature of fresh coffee beans and milk, and are all the clients wearing white lab coats and judging the brew to the nth degree or at all?

                  And now we have people in the forums talking up this piece of equipment because it was seen in the comp, seeming to take up sides for and against based on what are said to be the particular attributes that the grinder may or may not impart to an elite style espresso.

                  Self fulfilling prophesy going on here....someone walks into a comp with a particular grinder. Internet groups pick it up and through the usual round of discussions turn it into an instant icon. People in cafes many of whom are very insecure of their coffee, will pick it up and run with it regardless of whether it will make any difference or not to their business or the real world quality of the coffees they sell to the public.

                  Reality check. This is nothing more than another piece of (albeit good in the context of bulk coffee business it is designed for) equipment that is available to businesses to choose and use, if they wish.

                  In terms of use in a cafe situation....who cares if the manufacturer is redesigning the thing for cafe use? Does anyone here really think that the coffee from your favourite cafe will taste any different? Will the cafes run this side by side with another grinder so the clients can pick the difference? And if they can pick a difference, what does it mean? Does that mean that the coffees they previously enjoyed when made with another type grinder, were rubbish? Do we all drive the same car, and do the holdens and fords driven at Bathurst have anything much to do with those we buy and drive on the road?

                  None of that means I am either for or against the grinder and it is an offering from a quality equipment manufacturer in the context of what it is actually designed to do (bench/deli / bulk grinder) .....just watching with interest at how all this stuff goes round and round as usual in this forum.

                  While having good equipment is a given, its not the equipment that makes your coffee, its your brewista that makes your coffee.

                  EDIT:
                  I should have mentioned, I have 3 bench type Mahlkonig grinders in use (not EK43) at quite a few thousand dollars expense... They are fantastic in the context they are designed for and used in. While they deliver a quality product, it's not about the quality, its the use / work they are designed to do. None of them are in a cafe and I wouldn't put them in there.
                  Last edited by TOK; 18 February 2014, 01:28 PM.

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                  • #24
                    I see barista comps in a very similar light to West Coast Jazz in the 50's and 60's, much of it was music that only musicians and a few enlightened members of the listening public understood, or even cared about, the majority of people didn't want to know and couldn't care less.

                    The few non muso's that embraced it were seen as odd balls, the type that see UFO's and experience paranormal activity, kinda like coffee geeks.

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                    • #25
                      You could well be right - maybe its just another fad that will be played with and end up adding nothing positive to the world of espresso.

                      However, I like it that people in the industry are prepared to try new things. Everything I have ever been involved in has had a bunch of people who are continually looking to improve things. Yes, they can be annoying sometimes as they are often obsessed with their particular take on things. (And yes, internet forums do tend to worship this sort of stuff, but if they didn't I think a few people reading this would be a bit worried about their bottom lines at the end of the month.) But espresso has evolved a lot from the days of 7g singles and 14 g doubles from one or two pulls on a doser that is full of coffee that was ground 20 or 30 mins ago ready for the next rush.

                      Maybe with a bit of work and experimenting the EK43 and similar grinders can produce espresso that some people find enjoyable and interesting. I don't see a problem with that. Does anyone have any evidence to suggest that the claims being made at this early stage are false? Perhaps that would make an interesting blog entry?

                      As to workflow issues, I think if people decide they really think its worth having that kind of grinder on the espresso bar and need more speed, they will find a way to speed things up, just like what happened with the development of espresso machines.

                      If we don't try new things, with the knowledge that many will fail, does that mean we think espresso has reached its pinnacle? Or maybe not even its pinnacle, but that there might be more ways to enjoy coffee brewed quickly at high pressures?

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                      • #26
                        I think the ek43 looks like a sausage machine.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Pete39 View Post
                          ...

                          Maybe with a bit of work and experimenting the EK43 and similar grinders can produce espresso that some people find enjoyable and interesting. I don't see a problem with that. Does anyone have any evidence to suggest that the claims being made at this early stage are false?....
                          I understand your point of view but in essence its irrelevant (that's not an insult, please). Its just another grinder, that happens to be getting special treatment at the moment because someone took it into a comp. and now its being "wound up".

                          Its not the only good grinder around and if it has something special about it, so do other grinders. Some accentuate "clarity" Some accentuate "low notes". Some accentuate "acidity". Some are faster, some are slower, some are less messy, some are more messy. They're all good, and if I may again use a vehicular analogy, if you get three different brand / model cars that are pitched at the same market, which one is "better"? They're just similar model cars pitched at the same market.

                          If cafe owner a) wishes to buy and use an EK43 in his cafe, that's great.

                          If cafe owner b) wishes to buy and use some other good name grinder in his cafe, that's also great.

                          Is the cafe coffee brewed by each any different in real terms (if they share the same baristas, equipment, coffee and milk supply), is it a significant difference, can anybody tell?

                          What is different, is the presentation and image portrayed by each cafe, and in essence that makes the grinder part of the decor and the "show" that the operator wants to portray to his/her clientelle. Nothing wrong with that, but it has nothing to do with perceived quality.


                          Hope that helps.

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                          • #28
                            This is my first post on this site, so hello to all.

                            As a newcomer, I find it curious the manufacturers are not (to my knowledge) publishing any performance data on their top end grinders.
                            Since good espresso is such a science and craft, it seems logical to know what sort of variation in particle size and shape there may be through a range of grind settings.
                            Probably the type of bean and roast has a big impact, but surely there would be some way to benchmark performance?
                            If this were so, a customer could purchase a grinder most likely to allow a flavour characteristic in the cup they prefer?
                            As is, everyone buys on blind faith and keeps their fingers crossed.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TOK View Post
                              In terms of use in a cafe situation....who cares if the manufacturer is redesigning the thing for cafe use? Does anyone here really think that the coffee from your favourite cafe will taste any different? Will the cafes run this side by side with another grinder so the clients can pick the difference? And if they can pick a difference, what does it mean? Does that mean that the coffees they previously enjoyed when made with another type grinder, were rubbish?
                              I'm not familiar with the cafe scene in Australia. But in the 13 years I've been observing US cafes, there have been loud and continuous calls for improvement in espresso grinders from nearly all the best shops. In heavy use, the popular grinders run too hot, change grind setting as they heat up, cook the beans sitting directly above the burrs, and require lots of coffee to be run through before settling in to a new grind setting. All these issues are no secret, so I'm really surprised that at least some of you folks seem so satisfied with the current mediocre "state of the art."

                              Along come some innovative folks using an old grinder design in a very new way that just might solve every one of the above listed problems, and you aren't the slightest bit interested? Weird.

                              Originally posted by TOK View Post
                              While having good equipment is a given, its not the equipment that makes your coffee, its your brewista that makes your coffee.
                              Agree 100%, however even the greatest brewista needs a high-quality grinder and an espresso machine.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TOK View Post
                                I understand your point of view but in essence its irrelevant (that's not an insult, please). Its just another grinder, that happens to be getting special treatment at the moment because someone took it into a comp. and now its being "wound up".
                                Perhaps you could explain what in my point of view is "in essence irrelevant"? In terms of the thread title, my point of view is I see no problems with people using EK43s in cafes if they choose to (you seem to agree), they might be just a fad (you seem to agree), they might provide a different espresso experience (in terms of clarity and sweetness), perhaps not possible with current popular espresso grinders (you seem to think probably not but ask the question, several of those who have tried the idea and written about it suggest they do), its an idea worth exploring (Chris clearly thinks not).

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