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Rising popularity of EK43s in cafés

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  • #31
    Pete- it's not that they won't grind for espresso which they will. To be of any use whatsoever, you'd need substantial modification and TBH, I wonder if there would be any consistent difference in the cup between an ek43 and say a Major-E which is designed to grind on demand.

    Bottom line in all of this is that if the operator manages any retention appropriately, can the difference be picked blind? If not, it's really just a less suitable alternative.

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    • #32
      Once again to use a music comparison, Hi Fi gear, amplifiers, players and speakers can be swapped and changed infinitely, each component when changed can vary what your hearing, some changes will suit your taste others may not, and of course prices range from very economical to ridiculous, most people compromise while the true fanatics would pawn the wife and kids in order to buy the latest $30'000 turntable.

      Coffee making equipment is similar, different grinder/machine combinations will certainly produce different results, and as we well know, prices, like audio gear vary enormously, as with sound equipment, it really is a matter of experimenting with different combinations until you find something that is to your taste and pocket.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by gregbme View Post
        Probably the type of bean and roast has a big impact, but surely there would be some way to benchmark performance?
        Not meaningfully, I suspect. Much like GPUs, I suspect they only function as part of a whole and while benchmarks (particle size distribution) can give an indication of general quality or "tier", they probably won't provide useful information beyond that when the multitude of roasts/beans/palates/brew-variables are taken into account.

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        • #34
          A point that is constantly ignored! is the discussion aimed at home users or a cafe/commercial situation, each have their own specific requirements and what suits one will probably not suit the other.

          Having never owned or worked in a cafe all of my observations and opinions are based on home use.

          Most members of Coffee Snobs would I suspect be home users.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Yelta View Post
            A point that is constantly ignored! is the discussion aimed at home users or a cafe/commercial situation, each have their own specific requirements and what suits one will probably not suit the other.
            Should be open to both sides as long as everyone's clear where their comments are coming from. Perhaps a little more tolerance is in order.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ASchecter View Post
              I'm not familiar with the cafe scene in Australia. But in the 13 years I've been observing US cafes, there have been loud and continuous calls for improvement in espresso grinders from nearly all the best shops. In heavy use, the popular grinders run too hot, change grind setting as they heat up, cook the beans sitting directly above the burrs, and require lots of coffee to be run through before settling in to a new grind setting. All these issues are no secret, so I'm really surprised that at least some of you folks seem so satisfied with the current mediocre "state of the art."

              Along come some innovative folks using an old grinder design in a very new way that just might solve every one of the above listed problems, and you aren't the slightest bit interested? Weird.



              Agree 100%, however even the greatest brewista needs a high-quality grinder and an espresso machine.
              Of course we are (interested in good gear), and when 99% of cafe owners buy their own gear instead of sponging "free" on loan from their suppliers, they will be able to spend that kind of money on that kind of grinder for themselves if they wish. Everything has a cost, and the more a client wants "on loan", the more it will cost in dollars per kilo over a certain term of contract which as many of us in the business know, the clients wont pay....

              In terms of equipment spec: Over here the equipment is placed according to the volume, and that of course means according to the heat that will be generated and the consequences that have to be dealt with. I'd say 99% of cafe clients don't / wont buy their own gear and its usually left to the supplier. In plain terms a supplier that under specifies a piece of equipment is a fool because it just backfires on him for reasons we well know. There are so many cafes per capita of population in Australia that there is a very large spread of volume and you might be surprised that the average weekly kilos are not that great. I would, estimate say on average, 15 to 20 kilos per week would be a fair estimate of average, while there are cafes that do 5 kilos, and others that do 150 kilos per week. For that kind of average, where the daily use is spread out, you don't need the bigger high volume grinders. Suppliers look at the spread of kilos over the day for any particular client. Someone that does 5 kilos per day but its spread over say 3 x 1 hour peak periods, certainly rates a high volume grinder.

              Many high volume clients have two main grinders, plus a secondary grinder. That of course also affects what kind of grinders a supplier can put in.

              As you will know, in 99% of cafe / coffee industry none of that has anything to do with quality in the cup it has to do with overheating and its consequences (and that of course has nothing to do with my own personal take on "quality", its just a statement of fact).

              I feel we have ventured into industry talk which is not really relevant to the majority of lookers here, but it does demonstrate to the lookers that there is always a lot more to something than meets the eye.

              All of that said, in the context of the topic here I am happy to sit on my penultimate post which was #35 above.

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              • #37
                Interesting when something new comes to the market or a new work practice is put forward that a bunch of people advocate one way or the other, have a little biffo in the forums then everything settle downs and what was once argued right / wrong / ground breaking / unnecessary becomes accepted or dismissed with very little reflection of what went on before it.
                On this site and others we argue about tamping, brew temperatures, extraction times, roast profiles and the list goes on, do we effect any change to what another person decides to do in their coffee journey. Probably not, but we do feel we had a chance to be heard and that our own opinion is worth something.

                Interesting little creatures us humans and to then add coffee as a stimulant to us, destined to continue the way we do. At the end of the day if it works for you great if it doesn't change it until you find what does. Nobody's right nobody's wrong we all just like something different in the cup.

                Happy exploring

                Chester

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                • #38
                  Whether we are commercially or privately involved in the coffee world; one thing we all like is a manufacturer who listens to the market
                  and responds accordingly.

                  Maybe that will happen with this grinder. In it's current format it doesn't suit large sectors of the market.

                  If it's reconfigured for more high volume espresso grinding duties then adopter rates may also bring the price down.

                  I've had the opportunity to have some coffee off this grinder. It's good but it's not everything, I'd like to see it with conical burrs as well
                  as the big planers it currently has.

                  Hopefully, Mahlkoenig will see the opportunity with the current interest in this grinder and handball it back to the product R&D team.

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                  • #39
                    I agree except on one point and that is where you've written: "...Hopefully, Mahlkoenig will see the opportunity with the current interest in this grinder and handball it back to the product R&D team...."

                    I don't necessarily see there is any "current interest" in this as a cafe grinder, other than what is being talked up in this topic.

                    Coincidentally, a few months ago when I was having difficulty getting some grinding burrs for another type grinder with even *better spec* (for bulk coffee) than the EK43, I was considering buying one....... so I hope this will exemplify I am not in any way "against" this model. Please read all of my comments here in the context of the topic started by the OP and whatever other replies have brought up on the way down the thread..

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Jonathon
                      As the OP, what started this off was a number of instagrams from Proud Mary showing their mods to EK43s.

                      In this link you see a doser mod they've done to one of their EK43s. There are some other interesting photos on their Instagram feed.

                      Instagram
                      The mods they have done look to be working quite well. No doubt could easily be improved and refined by someone with the appropriate skills.

                      Having tried Ghost rider at home a couple of times, ridiculous light roast for espresso, but when I got it right it made a very very interesting milk drink and I can see why it won last years Golden Bean.

                      This radically light roasting for espresso is what this grinder is all about and people like Matt Perger / Ben Kaminsky pushing for balanced, sweet, fruity espresso that is not a a small glob of sour / roast double ristretto from light to medium roasted beans. I get the impression they think any roast characteristic is a flaw...?

                      I find it interesting on occasion to play with something very different (light roasts) for espresso...but most of the time give me a double that's just pushing into ristretto territory from beans that have some DEPTH to them, which for me can be easily achieved without taking the beans into 2nd crack.

                      Amway just my 2 bob.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Steve82 View Post
                        This radically light roasting for espresso is what this grinder is all about and people like Matt Perger / Ben Kaminsky pushing for balanced, sweet, fruity espresso that is not a a small glob of sour / roast double ristretto from light to medium roasted beans. I get the impression they think any roast characteristic is a flaw...?
                        Agreed. I played with a lighter, but not green roast today (not mine)- from a roaster who I respect... not using my Mahlkonig- rather the Robur-E and PID'ed Ventus at about 93 deg...

                        First few shots- visually correct pour and it looked terrific in the cup- god awful undrinkable shockers...

                        Time for reflection and a few hours later I approach the gear again...break the rules. 20 ml from a double in about 45 (perhaps more) sec from when the spring took over- more trad. ristretto pour.

                        Bingo. No lemons and an absolute fruit bomb. The result in the cup looked inferior but on the palate- gold.

                        The lesson for me- A reminder that it's not so much the tools as the nut on the group handle.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by TOK View Post
                          Over here the equipment is placed according to the volume, and that of course means according to the heat that will be generated and the consequences that have to be dealt with. I'd say 99% of cafe clients don't / wont buy their own gear and its usually left to the supplier.
                          OK, thanks, that explains a lot.

                          In the US cafes generally buy their own equipment. The high quality cafes are intensely interested in buying gear that's the best for their situation. Of course the appearance, prestige, etc of the espresso machine on bar is an important factor, but the proper functioning of the equipment is also extremely important (especially with grinders). Many US cafe owners will gladly pay for better grinders.

                          In addition to the possible benefits of the EK-43 I mentioned in post #38 above, there is another one: because of the higher extraction yields obtainable with this grinder, a cafe can (at least in theory) reduce its consumption of coffee beans by 10-15%. If a medium-high volume cafe uses 50 kg of coffee a week, and by using the EK can save 10-15% in material cost, I think the grinder pays for itself in a year. That is assuming the workflow issues can be solved (and I think they can).

                          This is another reason why I respectfully disagree with your claim that, "Its just another grinder, that happens to be getting special treatment at the moment because someone took it into a comp. and now its being "wound up".

                          Time will tell, of course, I certainly could be dead wrong on this.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ASchecter View Post
                            OK, thanks, that explains a lot.

                            In the US cafes generally buy their own equipment. [/COLOR]
                            Whaaaat!!???? You mean to say Andy, that we in Aus are the only roasters who face the prospect of having to 'buy' client accounts
                            to establish a business? Accounts cost anything up to $25k+, for high end equipment, and generally in the 10-15k ball park, for the good to average gear.

                            And it doesn't stop there..... umbrellas, wind breaks, cupware, sugar.........

                            Now I know that there's no such thing as a free lunch and that 'free on loan ' equipment is paid for with the coffee purchases,
                            and the same coffee might sell from $25-$50 kg depending on whether there is machinery, or not, and the price tag of the machines, if there is.
                            (And that same coffee might only be worth $5-7/kg roasted and packed)

                            Not everybody is in the game of freebies, I'm one for starters, but it's the second question I get asked when I'm on the road.....
                            "And what machine will you give us?" Sheeesh.

                            I try and educate people about the advantage of owning their own gear, being in control of their coffee destiny
                            and avoiding being taken for a ride with the poor quality of the coffee that they receive, where the margin pays for the machine in two years,
                            then the roaster's holidays and car collection for the next 10.

                            It started back in the 80's with a well known coffee roaster, now mega, whose name starts with V. it or ia
                            They essentially changed the market for everyone just to get some market share.

                            But I'm sorely tempted...... just so I can grow a little bit more and make the bank manager happier.

                            OT....and a rant! ;-D

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                            • #44
                              Very much a strategy learned from the old Australian (and UK) brewing firms (pre-Trade Practices Act) me thinks Chokkidog.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
                                Very much a strategy learned from the old Australian (and UK) brewing firms (pre-Trade Practices Act) me thinks Chokkidog.
                                Cheers BOS, they learned good ;- (

                                Coca Cola does it as well with their fridges supplied 'free' to cafes. Something like an 80% product stock rate rule applies.....

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