Rising popularity of EK43s in cafés

[Pete39]

I'm interested if anyone has any comments regarding the claims Perger et al. are making regarding improvements in clarity and sweetness due to increased extraction yield that they attribute to the particle size distribution produced by the EK43.

[ASchecter]

Far too much generalisation being applied for markets where intrinsic knowledge is sparse. Don't think we would try and tell prospective cafe operator/owners in the US how to setup and run their businesses...

Hi Mal:

I apologize if you thought I was telling anyone in Aus how to run their business. Please rest assured: I have never even come close to telling anyone in the US how to do that, and there's absolutely no chance I would be such a pretentious ass as to try and do so in your country.

What I WAS trying to do was (1) comment on the original topic ("Rising popularity of EK43s in cafes"), (2) hopefully have an interesting conversation, and (3) perhaps shed some light on why it might not be "just another grinder." If you think I'm FOS, that's OK, we can still coexist.

Andrew, when suppliers over here are called upon to provide equipment under a "Free On Loan" scheme, they are not about trying to reduce the coffee consumption of the cafe.....quite the opposite. Your scenario is for where the cafe buys the equipment. Our scenario is where the supplier gives free use of its equipment (and everything else they want provided for "nothing") to the cafe. Different ball game.

Understood. In the Australian scenario that you outline, the EK43 has no possibility of "rising popularity."

[Dragunov21]

Just my 2c, but I wouldn't call it a plug, more like using a name so as not to make the sentences confusing by using pronouns. There's only one that I'd call unnecessary.

It's also relevant, because it is a direct description of a roaster's brand overshadowing that of the cafe itself. (Which feeds into the previous OT discussion of the FOL/turnkey business model)

[TOK]

And to sum up at this point.

A handful of cafes in Melbourne may at some point take up the challenge and put in an EK43 grinder while the other odd 1000 cafes in the greater Melbourne area will not.

Storm in a teacup, all whipped up right here in CS.

Chokkidog. Thank you for placing your correction or clarifying your comments re FOL, and the quality of of coffee beans that may or may not be supplied under such an arrangement, and the calibre of the suppliers that may or may not get into FOL for their own reasons in order to carry on their own businesses in whatever ways they see fit.

In the end its the clients that choose what quality of coffee they want to run with in order to secure equipment that they don't want to pay for, at a per kilo price above which they are not prepared to pay.

Re "minimum order 6 kg per week". For those of us with a calculator and basic primary school maths, 6 kg a week means the roaster is supplying at a real loss (or working for nothing) when all the costs of supply are factored in...and I mean ALL the costs of supply, except if the per kilo price is high or the contracted term is long. When one of these clients eventually renigs on the deal (and they always do), they will not get any sympathy from the supplier. In any case it is a recipe for disaster for both parties and easy for you to walk away from....you don't want those clients, you want quality clients.

[chokkidog]

To be fair.... there are many small to medium roasters producing top quality product who are into the FOL thing, though I doubt it's by choice.
Some of the smaller roasters into FOL are in it to create volume turn-over and cash-flow to allay the cost of idle roasting plant and the capital
required for long lead time between bulk green bean purchase and roasted coffee sales.

As I said, I'm sorely tempted to do some FOL, and I'm micro...... and top quality ;- D

My comment about FOL and poor quality coffee ( post #55) was more aimed at the big national and multinational roasters whom I compete against.
There is one national roaster represented in town who will give a start-up business a new 3 group machine, grinder, 6 metres of windbreak, up to two umbrellas
and branded prepack sugar..............for a minimum order of only 6 kgs / week.

[chokkidog]

Big V .... Big M....Big Nuisance...........

And responsible for the plague of autofill, stale coffee doser grinders.

Hmmmm... if they handed out EK43's instead, perhaps the wet coffee industry would be

at least more educated about coffee as an experience rather than a commodity and as Chris said recently...

"concentrate on the dollar and the coffee will go to *^&%....concentrate on the coffee and the dollars will come and keep coming".

Something like that.

Nice segue tho' ;-D

[Jonathon]

On the topic of roasters supplying the gear, this is an interesting view from a roaster who encourages the opposite.

--link removed - content pasted --

WE DON'T JUST SUPPLY COFFEE.

Posted on October 20, 2013 by Darren Silverman
It has become a daily conversation. Every day I am hearing how disillusioned cafe owners have become with their current coffee supplier.
'They used to look after us but they're too big now. They don't care anymore.' Or the one about, unfulfilled promises of support and training. If this sounds familiar, then you are not alone. This blog is not written solely as an attempted grab at wholesale customers but more about letting you know that there are alternatives out there. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but every coffee company will supply coffee and, at the very least, most of it is of a reasonable quality. The question is...with literally hundreds of coffee suppliers out there, which do you choose and why?
Before I answer this question, here is a little information about how some of the big coffee companies work. The big ones, who shall remain nameless, have money to throw around. They can, and they do, pray on and ultimately seduce the inexperienced cafe owner with worldly promises of support and training, machinery, merchandise including wind barriers and umbrellas, crockery and often a sizeable cash incentive thrown in to gain your account. To good to refuse right? Allow me to let you in on a little secret. Nothing in life is free.
Before you know it, your cafe, your pride and joy is a total advertisement for the coffee brand. Everything you have is covered in the brand name and logo of your coffee supplier which makes it almost impossible to build your own brand and absolutlely impossible to ever be seen as anything other than a store that is seemingly owned and run by a major coffee company. Building your own brand, remember, is the reason you went into business in the first place.
By now you have also signed a little dotted line that binds you to that arrangement for as long as it take the supplier to reap every cent back for the original set up including the ongoing weekly coffee purchases of which you cannot do without. These are water tight contracts that, most often, are impossible to break. Trust me, you'll pay back every cent that's been provided, with interest. A lot of it. Moral of the story...don't sign anything!!
Why am I telling you this? Read my 1st line again. Every day I speak to people who want more. They don't want to be 'run of the mill'. They want support, advice and a personal touch. They want to learn how to 'understand' coffee, understand the coffee business and want some help to try and take their business to another level. Here it comes. You know...the plug. This is where Black Velvet comes in.
We don't just supply coffee but offer a complete and documented analysis of your business that covers all areas of your cafe and your coffee that can help take your business to the next level. We discuss things like 'perception' and the image your cafe portrays to your customers. We offer advice on a range of subtle changes that can be made which can dramatically change the image of your business and with that, the training required to improve the quality of your coffee. The best thing about these changes is that most of them come at very little cost, in fact, implementing our strategy will actually save you money by cutting most of your uncecessary costs down while simultaneously promoting your own brand. The other bonus is, you also get to use Black Velvet Coffee.
There are so many coffee roasters out there. Some will offer you the world. Others will pride themselves on offering nothing but coffee.

--from: Black Velvet Espresso

[TOK]

OK, thanks, that explains a lot......

In addition to the possible benefits of the EK-43 I mentioned in post #38 above, there is another one: because of the higher extraction yields obtainable with this grinder, a cafe can (at least in theory) reduce its consumption of coffee beans by 10-15%. If a medium-high volume cafe uses 50 kg of coffee a week, and by using the EK can save 10-15% in material cost, I think the grinder pays for itself in a year. That is assuming the workflow issues can be solved (and I think they can).

This is another reason why I respectfully disagree with your claim that, "Its just another grinder, that happens to be getting special treatment at the moment because someone took it into a comp. and now its being "wound up".

Time will tell, of course, I certainly could be dead wrong on this.

Andrew, when suppliers over here are called upon to provide equipment under a "Free On Loan" scheme, they are not about trying to reduce the coffee consumption of the cafe.....quite the opposite. Your scenario is for where the cafe buys the equipment. Our scenario is where the supplier gives free use of its equipment (and everything else they want provided for "nothing") to the cafe. Different ball game.

Also note and to state the obvious, the cost of the equipment is either taken directly out of and born squarely by the suppliers working capital account (and where they are using an overdraft, paying interest on that portion of it that they have tied up and can no longer use for their own use, and as a result of losing the use of the capital over time, they have to dig deeper into their overdraft for their own use and pay more interest to the banks) OR.....is sold to a finance company at time of delivery to the cafe client, and thereafter the supplier is paying to lease back the equipment at its own expense to provide "free" use of it to the cafe client. Does it get any better than that!

Placing even more expensive equipment out on the above basis makes profit margins for suppliers smaller and smaller....

And of course any supplier that wont play ball (supply on this basis), severely reduces its capacity to grow its market share and roasted coffee sales volume, because almost every other competing supplier is doin' it.

So yeah, horses for courses I'm afraid.

Chokkidog: it wasnt the big V that started it....it was the big M, after which the big V in its need to compete, took it on and won the war. And of course they all just copied it from the Italian market that had been there first.....and they dragged everyone else along with them.....

[Dimal]

I certainly could be dead wrong on this.

Yep, you sure could be...

Far too much generalisation being applied for markets where intrinsic knowledge is sparse. Don't think we would try and tell prospective cafe operator/owners in the US how to setup and run their businesses...

Mal.

[TC]

Whaaaat!!???? You mean to say Andy, that we in Aus are the only roasters who face the prospect of having to 'buy' client accounts
to establish a business?

Initial outlay is silly into some businesses. I did however hear of a high volume cafe with multiple grinders, top end LM et al....Paying $52/kg for what should be half that. I guess at $60/kg they could have an ek-43 too....

Me? I just don't get it....

[chokkidog]

Very much a strategy learned from the old Australian (and UK) brewing firms (pre-Trade Practices Act) me thinks Chokkidog.

Cheers BOS, they learned good ;- (

Coca Cola does it as well with their fridges supplied 'free' to cafes. Something like an 80% product stock rate rule applies.....

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Very much a strategy learned from the old Australian (and UK) brewing firms (pre-Trade Practices Act) me thinks Chokkidog.

[chokkidog]

OK, thanks, that explains a lot.

In the US cafes generally buy their own equipment. [/COLOR]

Whaaaat!!???? You mean to say Andy, that we in Aus are the only roasters who face the prospect of having to 'buy' client accounts
to establish a business? Accounts cost anything up to $25k+, for high end equipment, and generally in the 10-15k ball park, for the good to average gear.

And it doesn't stop there..... umbrellas, wind breaks, cupware, sugar.........

Now I know that there's no such thing as a free lunch and that 'free on loan ' equipment is paid for with the coffee purchases,
and the same coffee might sell from $25-$50 kg depending on whether there is machinery, or not, and the price tag of the machines, if there is.
(And that same coffee might only be worth $5-7/kg roasted and packed)

Not everybody is in the game of freebies, I'm one for starters, but it's the second question I get asked when I'm on the road.....
"And what machine will you give us?" Sheeesh.

I try and educate people about the advantage of owning their own gear, being in control of their coffee destiny
and avoiding being taken for a ride with the poor quality of the coffee that they receive, where the margin pays for the machine in two years,
then the roaster's holidays and car collection for the next 10.

It started back in the 80's with a well known coffee roaster, now mega, whose name starts with V. it or ia
They essentially changed the market for everyone just to get some market share.

But I'm sorely tempted...... just so I can grow a little bit more and make the bank manager happier.

OT....and a rant! ;-D

[ASchecter]

Over here the equipment is placed according to the volume, and that of course means according to the heat that will be generated and the consequences that have to be dealt with. I'd say 99% of cafe clients don't / wont buy their own gear and its usually left to the supplier.

OK, thanks, that explains a lot.

In the US cafes generally buy their own equipment. The high quality cafes are intensely interested in buying gear that's the best for their situation. Of course the appearance, prestige, etc of the espresso machine on bar is an important factor, but the proper functioning of the equipment is also extremely important (especially with grinders). Many US cafe owners will gladly pay for better grinders.

In addition to the possible benefits of the EK-43 I mentioned in post #38 above, there is another one: because of the higher extraction yields obtainable with this grinder, a cafe can (at least in theory) reduce its consumption of coffee beans by 10-15%. If a medium-high volume cafe uses 50 kg of coffee a week, and by using the EK can save 10-15% in material cost, I think the grinder pays for itself in a year. That is assuming the workflow issues can be solved (and I think they can).

This is another reason why I respectfully disagree with your claim that, "Its just another grinder, that happens to be getting special treatment at the moment because someone took it into a comp. and now its being "wound up".

Time will tell, of course, I certainly could be dead wrong on this.

[TC]

This radically light roasting for espresso is what this grinder is all about and people like Matt Perger / Ben Kaminsky pushing for balanced, sweet, fruity espresso that is not a a small glob of sour / roast double ristretto from light to medium roasted beans. I get the impression they think any roast characteristic is a flaw...?

Agreed. I played with a lighter, but not green roast today (not mine)- from a roaster who I respect... not using my Mahlkonig- rather the Robur-E and PID'ed Ventus at about 93 deg...

First few shots- visually correct pour and it looked terrific in the cup- god awful undrinkable shockers...

Time for reflection and a few hours later I approach the gear again...break the rules. 20 ml from a double in about 45 (perhaps more) sec from when the spring took over- more trad. ristretto pour.

Bingo. No lemons and an absolute fruit bomb. The result in the cup looked inferior but on the palate- gold.

The lesson for me- A reminder that it's not so much the tools as the nut on the group handle.