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when they say grinders are important as the coffee machine itself...

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  • when they say grinders are important as the coffee machine itself...

    how far is this?, how close? more or less important?
    what irradiate me is i find many discussion says a Mazzer Mini is a good all rounder, then other threads says its dosser are a real nuisance because it is a "Pro-oriented accessory part of the grinder for a busy cafe environment"...while its all true, and its convenience are a sometime a welcome feature that works for some...that operating word some is something of a condition requiring a particular prerequisite of a kitchen or bar set up at the home...

    then its said...theres debates of dosser/dosserless, a variety of switch layouts, throat size, chute size, and obstructions and so forth, in addition 'fixes' which are varied and sometimes difficult to find as some are buried so depth into different forums, some places are not even coffee-related, such as computer gamers or hospitality/trade related.

    to cut the chase, why are many discourage to go past the Mazzer mini or Super Jolly, when there are at least two dozens more options, granted some have timers, or electronic dossers or bigger burrs or that their gearing mechanisms claims to be 'special'

    then...its like saying your 'fancy' commodore with an add-on of a rear boot mounted spoilers with an engine making 20% more power than stock is going to benefit or need tyres thats are costing 2 to 4x more than ordinary width, softness of its rubber. Even so we know, its doesn't end there, tyres can go extra wider with fenders made wider, and then some houses bigger diffs and shafts, changing the game again....

    what it is, is that you'd get car fanatics saying those tyres are not needed, but essential for the track, and then there is street-stock class of racing using almost road tyres

    sound familiar? As with coffee grinders, its like we all seem to justify something or is it some of us are hiding unfounded misguided beliefs or something (else)

    now come back to the question, if a Mazzer Mini or a Macap M4D or MC4 or Super Jolly is more than what we use or demand, then the paradox springs back up, why then it's so important or it isn't That important when you can get a Kony, or Nino or even a used Ditting.

    That kind of double standard is intriguing
    comments anyone?

  • #2
    Have a read through this recent thread Grummer http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...vs-k3-m2m.html It may help to answer some of your interesting questions.

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    • #3
      'They' say such things because there are so many factors in a grinder that can affect your in-the-cup experience. With the machine it's basically, 'can it get to the right temperature?' and 'will it achieve the right pressure?'

      To put it another way, you can buy the best espresso machine you can find and stuff up the coffee with a poor grinder, but coffee ground to the right size, with a minimal spread of grain size, will make a pretty decent drink through almost any machine that meets the basics.

      Or to use your analogy, any car in decent condition will handle well with good rubber, but the best car in the world will kill you if the tyres are crap.

      So yes, the grinder is at least as important as the machine, but it's not doser/doserless that matters, it is what it does to a bean.

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      • #4
        Rhymes with bobble dee book

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        • #5
          A relevant question Grummer.

          Your analogy to car tires is not the best one to use and here is why.
          If you were allowed to drive your car at the best of your ability and not limited by anything or anyone, would you not buy the best tires you can lay your hands on?

          I tell a lot of people this and their reaction if always the same.
          I would rather make coffee using a $1000 grinder and a $100 machine than the other way around. So many variables can be adjusted using a high end grinder.

          My advice?
          Buy the best grinder you can afford and upgrade your machine when funds permit after that.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yelta View Post
            Have a read through this recent thread Grummer http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...vs-k3-m2m.html It may help to answer some of your interesting questions.
            yes sir, I have seen and re-read this thread like 5 times....

            I like the last post in this thread :
            I recently upgraded from a Rocky to mini Mazzer and I love the Mazzer!! Doser isnt an issue for me I only grind what I need each time but I find the doser great because while its grinding tithe doser I'm getting cups milk etc ready, then when grinding is done, dose, level, tamp and pull shot. But that's just my routine and what works for me!

            Let's r honest in the eyes of "normal people" (whoever they are they think all of this in overkill. All of these grinders will be fantastic just come to personal preference on looks, colour, size and if u like doser or not. Don't stress too much just pick one, buy it and enjoy the fruits of its grinding labour!!


            now....this is kind of related right back to MY question....

            indeed he loves the Mazzer, absolutely no doubt!...
            now, with this newly found happiness (it would be like getting a brand new Commodore Clubsport, its not a Ferrari, nor a Blown 454 Chevy in a 46' Ford Pick up truck, or a German 911)

            now, once you been in one of those later cars, you'd never go back to the Clubsport although most will do go back, on basis of practicality.

            on other hand, is there life (or next life) after the Mazzer, ie becoming a Porsche owner?

            To me, Super Jolly is like a Chevy, then Robur is like a V12 Mercedes, but i wanna a Porsche lol

            OK...um...

            Commodores have some quirks somewhere, perhaps boot size isn't as good as an ordinary german mercedes sedan or the smoothness of the V8 isn't the same as the Ferrari in a Lancia's 8.32 (rare Ferrari engines Lancia sedan)

            pop back again to grinders,
            would a Fiorenzato bit like an older Porsche 911, (ie with better doser, better built motor, but slightly 'old looking body' maybe a bit quiter , just a slightly better 'Mazzer'
            like ok
            its a german version of a commodore

            does this make any sense??

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Grummer View Post
              on other hand, is there life (or next life) after the Mazzer, ie becoming a Porsche owner?

              To me, Super Jolly is like a Chevy, then Robur is like a V12 Mercedes, but i wanna a Porsche lol
              There is one big difference between a grinder and a car..
              The best grinder can be bought for ~~$3k , whilst the Porsche would cost near $300k
              ..and you dont have stamp duty or rego, or insurance , etc etc for the grinder !
              So for relatively little $$'s you can buy whatever grinder you think might ring your bell,
              ..and if you dont like it, trade it for some other make to see if you can tell a difference.
              A relatively, inexpensive pass time compared to cars. ! ( or women !)

              PS.. in previous posts, i have likened the MMini to a 1980's Merc sedan..
              ..solid , reliable, a little slow, noisy, and still not cheap to buy.
              You certainly would question why you might buy a new one today considering all the new modern improved options.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re post #7. Sorry...no.

                Any of the cafe spec planar (normal flat grinding plate or burr) grinders will give you a similar result in the cup regardless of the size (diameter) of their grinding plates. The bigger they get, the more quickly they deliver product. Its a cafe thing for working in busy environments....

                If you want something a bit different, look at cafe spec conical burr grinders.

                The result in the cup will a little different. As stated previously, that doesnt mean one is better than the other....just different. Only you can decide what you like better than something else. And if you drink milk coffees, I doubt you will realistically taste any difference. And if you have a less than reasonable standard espresso machine, or dont have a well established high level and understanding barista technique, I also doubt you will tell the difference. It will depend on your level of progression through your coffee journey, and how good your own palate is. Some people have good palates, and others dont.

                You would then need to decide for yourself, whether spending say $450.00 on sopmething like Macap M2M OR Compak K3, or say $800.00 on a Macap M4 or Mazzer Mini (all FLAT plated), or say somewhere near $2000.00 for a Macap M7K (conical) or Compak K10, or more for other even bigger more heavy duty cafe spec conicals, is worth it to you for the differences they you may or may not pick in your 2 to 3 coffees per day at home.... So there is a cost benefit analysis in there for you as well.....Are the differences you may or may not be able to pick on your palate, that you may get from spending a lot more money, worth it to you?

                After that, if you want a large 20 kilo grinder sitting on your kitchen bench just because you do and it makes you feel better, go for it, but dont mistake that for "better" unless you have a good understanding of what "better" means to you.

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                • #9
                  Enough with the rambling rhetoric Grummer, read the first sentence in your last post and thought, this is better! then the wheels fell off (oh dear cars again) and my eyes glazed over, sometimes less is more

                  The relationship between machines and grinders is a simple concept that most come to understand early on in our coffee life, them that don't get it will find the espresso process more than a little frustrating.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by blend52 View Post
                    ...The best grinder can be bought for ~~$3k , whilst the Porsche would cost near $300k
                    .....So for relatively little $$'s you can buy whatever grinder you think might ring your bell,
                    ..and if you dont like it, trade it for some other make to see if you can tell a difference.
                    A relatively, inexpensive pass time compared to cars. ! ( or women !)......
                    Definition of "BEST"......??? I guess you are talking about large cafe spec conical grinders where BEST is that they deliver the largest possible volume/quantity of grinds in the shortest possible time, with less likelihood of overheating and activating the thermal cut out swich....therefore less likelihood of paralysing your business because the grinder has stopped grinding and you can nolonger sell coffee until it cools and restarts.

                    It seems to be a common miconception that these grinders are designed to give "better" grinds/coffee, when they are actually designed to better deliver a high volume of grinds and for you to better manage your cafe business... If they result in a different coffee to what you get from grinders with flat plates, that is a secondary outcome....and only individuals can decide on what they like best for themselves.

                    For the rest of it....yes, much less exi than playing with fast cars and fast women...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
                      Rhymes with bobble dee book
                      Wow! Such meaningful contribution. Way to waste a post.

                      Perhaps you might explain just what I wrote that is incorrect? Or are you just a troll?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
                        Wow! Such meaningful contribution. Way to waste a post.

                        Perhaps you might explain just what I wrote that is incorrect? Or are you just a troll?
                        I don't think Gaviscon was referring to your post JM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Maybe so, but in that case s/he needs to identify which one draws the comment. Even then, such comments are just a waste of space and contribute nothing to a conversation.

                          cheers...

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Yelta View Post
                            I don't think Gaviscon was referring to your post JM.

                            Correct........

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
                              Maybe so, but in that case s/he needs to identify which one draws the comment. Even then, such comments are just a waste of space and contribute nothing to a conversation.

                              cheers...
                              Its an opinion, that may or may not be justified, we're all entitled to em.

                              Comment

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