Quamar Q50 (manual) grind fineness

[wattgn]

I keep hearing about issues like this from the small Quamar Q50 and I wonder if it is a grinder issue also. They guy who just bought my Kony commented that at one point with his Q50, you could press the collar not that hard and make the blades touch once he had it dialled in for this espresso. It is only a year old. I’m not saying I have an issue with all Quamar grinders although they still don’t seem quite in the same level of build quality as say the Mazzer. Nevertheless, they make some very good grinders, I am just starting to wonder about this one.

The most important part of the grinder is the rigidity of the burr assembly and the tolerances (should be very small). I look at the huge brass burr assembly on the Rancilio Rocky (owned for 12 years) or the Macap M4D (owned for one year and selling now) and I see high quality and rigid assemblies. I could be wrong but I haven't heard of any problems similar with these grinders.

Commercial grinders such as the Robur, you can dial down to the finest turkish talcum powder without the blades being close to touching. The reason is that the tolerances are incredibly tight with very large bearings so you can have two surfaces very close indeed but at a constant clearance, allowing a lot of control over the grind at any level you wish.

Admittedly head space, bean freshness and lack of knowledge play a part too but if you want a good grinder start by looking at what is inside it, how heavily it is made (hint more is generally better).

I was also looking at the Quamar equivalent of the Robur out of interest, the Q13 (doser model), weighs 17.5kg verus 28kg for Robur. Lightly built in comparison although that may be due to the aluminium body. Plastic in the Doser for blades rather steel and so on.

I was looking at the Mazzer Mini and the engineering and attention to detail is outstanding. Now I have not owned any model of Mini but the owners down to the last person I have spoken to are happy. Occasionally of course, someone will comment how much better their coffee tastes once they have sold grinder A for the much better grinder B but this is to be expected. Sometimes people can be right too but sometimes it is in the mind and sometimes people do get grinders with issues or worn burrs, or damaged burrs (a rock doesn't help) or it is filthy and a nice clean grinder with brand new burrs, not surprisingly does the job better.

I only speak of the Mini by the way as it is in a similar price range to some of this Quamar stuff. There is also the excellent Macap M2 and M4 models all of which are excellent and well-engineered.

I am also a fan of people looking in gumtree and, for example, paying say $150 for a Fiorenzato F5 with 64mm burrs that is as good a Mazzer Super Jolly but much cheaper as the brand isn't as well recognised. Ex-cafe (and even better if you can find one used only in a home) grinders are generally great buys as most of them are good as new once a new set of burrs are put in (most burrs are cheap too although conical burrs can cost up to $250).

I am seeing too many people buying what is popular at the time, buying on features and not putting precision grinding and robustness of design (i.e. it should be impossible to break a good machine short of feeding it screws and bolts), at the top of the list, where it should be IMHO.

My preference is generally to go bigger (subject to space) such as the Fiorenzato F5 and Super Jolly, Kony, Robur, Major and I think conical grinders are generally better (not everyone agrees I know). My Robur is very quiet and will grind a shot in 3 seconds but it is BIG, not always suitable for small kitchens. I have no issues with grind retention and amazingly consistent high-quality grind. You will of course waste more coffee than with one designed for single grind use (a current obsession) but it is not that much, maybe 5% once you get the timings right but this does depend on your habits too.

I bought (and sold) a second-hand Robur (28kg monster) for $650 in gumtree and sold it for the same. I now have a brand-new Robur so I must have liked it.
I know doser machines are not in vogue at the moment but guess what, no clumping and you get plenty of mixing in the doser. You can also get them for good prices second hand or brand new.

Kitchen friendly machines where space is limited, that I like include the Mazzer Mini and don't discount the doser model either (it is cheaper) and the Macap M2 and M4 models. My personal preference is not for machines like the Sette (sounds like a jet airliner taking off but quick), or the Vario (fragile).

People are so used to throw away junk these days that they actually expect things to last only a few years or say five years or require a warranty as they are likely to break. Espresso machines such as Wega, ECM, Rocket (and the list goes on) are built to last decades. Grinders I have mentioned will likewise last for decades maybe 40 years or more in-home use and give much better results in the meantime.

[EspressoAdventurer]

OK CStewart that explains it. I have an earlier Rocket. I don't expect the E61 GH to have changed.
Mine and most E61 I allow at least 8mm headspace from the top of the basket as you finish tamping.
I can suggest you look up the 5cent test and experiment with your puck height more so than setting up on weight
at first...yes once you've nailed the setup then varying dose weight / puck height / tamp weight comes into your
kit bag.

A matched Tamper ( 1%er's ) is really a must if your chasing consistent shots time after time.

[wattgn]

I typically with any basket just fill it evenly to the top use my finger to wipe across the top of the basket (without compressing in any way) so that the surface of the coffee is flush with the top of the basket then tamp.

I am using 58mm Pesado handle with an IMS B70 2T h26.5 M.

The worst technique is to pile a cone of coffee then flatten it with the tamper especially with IMS or VST baskets. If you look at standard baskets they are poorly designed with sloping sides which give an uneven extraction.

The technique I use weighs about 20g and always works.

I would suggest a Barista course or maybe an experienced CS member to volunteer their services.

The idea of course is consistency of amount which I achieve by volume and producing even depth and density filter bed of coffee.

[cstewart1980]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the suggestions and help, and to EspressoAdventurer for his kind offer (I've sent a PM back).

I did take the grinder back and they looked it, ground some beans it worked fine on their machine in store. So I've brought it home and discovered where my problem lies, which is my dose being too small. I was dosing and tamping to the line/ridge on the inside of the rocket basket - per the rocket instructions. Turns it this didn't bring it even close to the shower screen and the puck would expand too much, causing the flow to gush out leaving a soggy mess at the end. The thing is I'm certain that when I used the pre-ground beans provided by the store dosing to the that same line resulted in nice shot with an even flow, so I assumed it was a grind fineness issue.

I'm now dosing so it reaches the filter screen and can consistently pour shots anywhere between 20-30 sec. What has me a little miffed as the dose I need to use is between 21-22g when using the double basket that came with the Rocket. This seems massive but if that is what works then I guess that is just the way it is, however I'm still experimenting to get a taste/result I like. Ideally I'd like to get some different baskets that I can use a lower dose with.

[stralto]

Hi CStewart

I have the Q50 P and I get the noise at -2 and below (the dial goes down to -4 before "bottoming out").

I also grind very low, usually at setting 0 to +2 with fresh beans (18 to 19g) using a stock 18g Breville basket.

I've heard that some baskets require a finer grind and Id imagine i'd run into trouble like you if i were to switch to one of them.

I'd certainly be returning the grinder or at the very least, getting them to grind and pull a shot in front of you.

[wattgn]

Yes, sounds like a generous offer there for you. On gumtree see a lot of Fiorenzato F5 for sale for $150 and it is a great grinder but know one seems to know much about them. I have a half mind just to buy one as a second grinder (well fourth, as I have a brand new Robur I am using, A brand new Kony sealed in a box for a CS member and my one year old Macap M4D I am selling). I would like though just a real cheap second grinder, one that works of of course.

[EspressoAdventurer]

Hi CStewart, Something doesn't sound right. Would appear tho the grinder is the first point to start.
Im a nearby local & happy to lend you a spare grinder for a short time to use as a test base
to compare the bean/ freshness / machine / shots.

I'll pm you.
GL

[wattgn]

You work out the zero point by manually turning the burrs, not running the motor.

I sounds defective or broken as designed. The fact is smaller prosumer grinders do operate close (ish) to the zero point especially if IMS or VST baskets are used. I have no experience though with the Quamar. I know my Rocky or Macap M4D handled this stuff fine.

It sounded like you bought this new so the obvious solution is to explain the situation to them and get go back to the store and get them to have a look, maybe running the beans in another grinder and all that.

If you are not happy get a refund as any grinder should be able to do espresso shots easily including the Quamar, I would recommend trying a Macap or even better the much maligned Mazzer Mini (even the one with the hopper is good).

It should work though and I'm sure that there are lots out there working which means it might be part of a defective batch and a good reason to get a different model just in case.

Bigger grinders such as commercial ones will grind to turkish dust easily let alone espresso.

I do have a Macap M4D for sale if you are interested but it sounds like first stop for you is where you bought it from.

Grant

[mthomas87]

The problem is I am struggling to achieve this with the beans I'm grinding myself. I've taken the collar off the grinder and thoroughly cleaned the burrs and thread etc. I re-assemble the grinder and find the 'zero' setting (where I can hear the rat-a-tat sound of the burrs touching) and turn back about 1/5 of a rotation and start to do some test grinds.
Chris

This doesn't sound quite right. I haven't used the Q50 but usually when you adjust to zero you just get a sound like the one at 2:30 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0BJgLU38zw

If it sounds rattle-y then something might be misaligned.

[Dimal]

G'day again mate....

I'm not personally familiar with the mechanical structure of this grinder.
When you wind the top burr down such that the burrs start to touch, do you get a continuous metal-to-metal screech or is it intermittent and in synch with the speed of rotation?

If the latter, I would be suspicious of the burr faces being parallel with each other, which they must be in order to maintain control over the grind size. If this is the situation, I'd be returning the grinder to the vendor from whom you purchased it and ask them to produce an acceptable series of shots in front of you. They should either prove the grinder is Ok or that it is faulty in which case you can request a replacement...

Mal.

[cstewart1980]

Thanks, Mal. I live in Morningside and picked up some beans from a local roaster on my way home from work today. During the day I also bought a small bag of beans from the coffee shop next door to my office. Both lots of beans were roasted and immediately packed about 7 days ago.

I have pulled the grinder apart, cleaned and re-assembled and I find the zero spot (detailed in my first post) to be in the same position. I move about 5 clicks back from this and as before the grind is very coarse. After several attempts, including purging between grinds, I've found myself back at the same zero +1 position and the same 14 sec pour (starting slower followed by a dramatic flow increase). Again the grind size, even at this finest setting, does not come close to the fineness of the pre-ground 'example' beans provided by the store I purchased the coffee machine and grinder from. Also again, using the pre-ground beans yields an acceptable pour (even after 4-5 days since being ground).

I'm really starting to suspect the grinder is not grinding fine enough OR is providing an uneven grind (perhaps the burrs are not level?). I think I'm going to take it back and let them look at it, problem is these guys don't open on weekends so I've got to take time off work to go in.

Chris

[Dimal]

Interestingly I noticed the beans I purchased were kept under the counter in an open top plastic tub - maybe that is a factor?

Sure is a problem.
I'd be very dubious of any roast date's validity in a premises that stores their coffee this way...

If you provide your general location, then a CSer from the same area can steer you towards some decent local roasters...

Mal.

[cstewart1980]

Thanks, Mal. The Merlo ones have a date of 21/09 on the bag. Interestingly I noticed the beans I purchased were kept under the counter in an open top plastic tub - maybe that is a factor? The empty bag of the other beans seems to have been thrown out already (by me) as its bin night tonight.

Chris

[Dimal]

Welcome "cstewart1980"...

Is there a "Roasted On" date on the bag of beans you were given?
Sounds to me as though the beans may be way past the Use By date.
Do yourself a favour and buy a bag of freshly roasted beans from a local roaster, from CoffeeSnobs here or one of our Site Sponsors. At least you will be starting from a position with a known 'quality' position.
Old beans (more than 3 weeks past their roast date) will always pour in the manner you describe as all the attributes we look for in fresh coffee have long since gone...

Mal.

[cstewart1980]

Hi All,

For years I've been using a Sunbeam EM6910 and accompanying EM0480. I have just purchased a Rocket Giotto and Quamar Q50 grinder. The store I purchased from provided me with a bag of beans as well as a sample of pre-ground beans that I can use to compare for consistency against the grind I produce from my grinder. When using the sample pre-ground beans I achieve a consistent ~26 second pour on my machine with a beautiful crema and flavour.

The problem is I am struggling to achieve this with the beans I'm grinding myself. I've taken the collar off the grinder and thoroughly cleaned the burrs and thread etc. I re-assemble the grinder and find the 'zero' setting (where I can hear the rat-a-tat sound of the burrs touching) and turn back about 1/5 of a rotation and start to do some test grinds. At this setting the grind is extremely coarse and after countless efforts and extremely fast shots I've adjusted the grinder all the way back to zero plus 1 click (the point at which the rat-a-tat noise goes away). Even at this setting it does not produce a grind fineness that is capable of choking my machine (this seems strange because the store told me that the grinder would be capable of grinding finer than what is required for my Giotto). At this setting the grind starts to feel similar in consistency to the pre-ground beans I was supplied (fluffy and almost powder like) however when I pull the shot it takes about 6-7 seconds before starting to pour a slow drip before speeding up rapidly to run a full double shot in about 14 seconds.

From this I presumed it was my dose, tamp or distribution method but no matter what I do I cannot correct the problem. As soon as I go back to the pre-ground beans, replicating the same dose, distribution and tamping (as best I can) the issue goes away and the shot pours as expected. Which leads me to suspect the grinder or possibly stale beans causing the issue? To double check I purchased some espresso beans from Merlo and experience exactly the same issue.

Does anyone have any experience with this grinder? Could stale beans cause that much discrepancy? I'd love to find out that I've overlooked something silly - the joy of solving the problem would far outweigh the feeling of being an idiot! Any input or help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Chris