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Macap M2M - fill hopper with only what you need?

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  • #16
    I had the Macap M4D and never really had an issue with pop corning as such. I do remember that there could be some variation in grind speed due to the hopper level but it wasn't really an issue.

    The Robur my current grinder is the model fitted with an auger about the burrs to mitigate I guess the effect of hopper level and maybe to prevent this pop corning. I just fill it to the bottom of the hopper more or less and it isn't a problem. I think possibly flat burr grinders as they operate at a higher RPM are more prone to this effect of trying to eject the beans when the hopper level is low. On the Robur the movement of the beans, regardless of the level is in one direction, down. It tends to suck the beans down and it may be due to this auger and the low RPM of 500 RPM that the grinder operates at.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by wattgn View Post
      I had the Macap M4D and never really had an issue with pop corning as such. I do remember that there could be some variation in grind speed due to the hopper level but it wasn't really an issue.
      .
      I have an M4D and an M2M. For whatever reason, grind inconsistency caused by a near empty chamber is much more noticeable on the M2M. Maybe something to do with the smaller burrs on the M2M

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
        I have an M4D and an M2M. For whatever reason, grind inconsistency caused by a near empty chamber is much more noticeable on the M2M.
        Testing over the weekend showed the same thing.

        working hard to keep dose and tamp consistent, back-to-back shots did not pour consistently. It was only once I filled the hopper up again that I started to get back to consistent shots.

        I'll have to play around with it a bit more.

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        • #19
          Bizzare.

          Did you weigh the beans before and grounds after to make sure you were getting all of it out? - this should have been too much of a problem if you did multiple shots at once.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by dbun View Post
            Testing over the weekend showed the same thing.

            working hard to keep dose and tamp consistent, back-to-back shots did not pour consistently. It was only once I filled the hopper up again that I started to get back to consistent shots.

            I'll have to play around with it a bit more.
            Yeah sounds pretty standard and that's my experience too.. some say grinders in general are just not designed for single dosing, and need a weight of beans. But some people have found that certain grinders seem suited to single dosing or find it works better for, but also that's why there a few designed specifically for that purpose. If you really would prefer to single dose I would even try going finer (that's assuming the pours are too fast..?), and make sure to keep each variable fixed (same dose, distribution method, tamp), and see if you can get consistent pours at a decent flow rate.

            But there's nothing wrong with hopper dosing, and you can manage waste and it's easy to implement practices that keep it to a minimum. I was the sort of person a while ago that was meticulous about saving every single gram I could.. but now I am just much more cruisy about it, and think life's too short to believe in scarcity, what I'm lacking and what I need to 'save'. (still a work in progress hehe). Not a healthy mindset really, and can leave one in a constant state of 'not-enough'ness hehe.

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            • #21
              I single dose into a Mazzer Mini e. 20gms goes into the throat and 20gms are swept out, from the throat, from the funnel and the chute, either direct into the portafilter or into a conatiner - totally bean dependent. I single dose for freshness and wastage reasons.

              Whilst not having the weight of a full hopper of beans can cause excess fines with some bean types/roast levels, which leads to pour consistency problems, generally the issues caused by the extra fines can easily be overcome as long as they can be reasonably evenly dsitributed.

              When experiencing the excess fines that can be caused by single dosing by some roasts, into a machine that is not designed for such functions, I use WDT to distribute all the tiny particles evenly (AFAHP) amongst their bigger buddies, hopefully ensuring an even flow of water through the puck. From what I have read it is not the fines that cause the consistency problems but their distribution or lack of it - bring on the Niche - which hopefully ends the pour inconsistency problems caused by poor distribution of coffee fines resulting from single dosing on non-single dosing designed machines.

              Even distribution of particle sizes appears to be the key.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
                Did you weigh the beans before and grounds after to make sure you were getting all of it out? - this should have been too much of a problem if you did multiple shots at once.
                I was getting almost the same amount out.
                E.g. if I put 20.5g in I was getting 20.3g out - the main thing I was shooting for was the same amount in the basket, so even if the amount going in was slightly more, I would make sure I removed some to get the same 20g in the basket.

                Do you have a M2M too? Is it working fine for you?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
                  If you really would prefer to single dose I would even try going finer (that's assuming the pours are too fast..?), and make sure to keep each variable fixed (same dose, distribution method, tamp), and see if you can get consistent pours at a decent flow rate.
                  I'm going to play around with it more - already I'm a couple of clicks finer than what I had before, but I might need to go finer again - the same setting with the hopper filled will choke the machine (too fine!), but with a single dose will pour.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by noonar View Post
                    Even distribution of particle sizes appears to be the key.
                    I will try your suggestions - I've never done WDT, but perhaps dosing into a container first to help distribute and break up clumps before tipping into the PF will help.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by noonar View Post
                      Whilst not having the weight of a full hopper of beans can cause excess fines with some bean types/roast levels, which leads to pour consistency problems, generally the issues caused by the extra fines can easily be overcome as long as they can be reasonably evenly dsitributed.

                      When experiencing the excess fines that can be caused by single dosing by some roasts, into a machine that is not designed for such functions, I use WDT to distribute all the tiny particles evenly (AFAHP) amongst their bigger buddies, hopefully ensuring an even flow of water through the puck. From what I have read it is not the fines that cause the consistency problems but their distribution or lack of it - bring on the Niche - which hopefully ends the pour inconsistency problems caused by poor distribution of coffee fines resulting from single dosing on non-single dosing designed machines.

                      Even distribution of particle sizes appears to be the key.
                      Ah wow I've never heard that theory before.. that's fascinating.. I may have to give that a go.. so it's a matter of just redistributing the fines evenly throughout the puck so they're not all clumped together at the top or a specific location..

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
                        Ah wow I've never heard that theory before.. that's fascinating.. I may have to give that a go.. so it's a matter of just redistributing the fines evenly throughout the puck so they're not all clumped together at the top or a specific location..
                        I don't doubt the theory (it makes sense), but with an M2M you are simply better off loading more beans than you need. Distributing fines helps, but you get a different amount of them each time if you try single dosing the M2M, and this affects consistency. If desperate, the grinder is small enough to comfortably tip upside down and recover the unused beans at the end of the session.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by noonar View Post
                          Whilst not having the weight of a full hopper of beans can cause excess fines with some bean types/roast levels, which leads to pour consistency problems, generally the issues caused by the extra fines can easily be overcome as long as they can be reasonably evenly distributed.
                          When experiencing the excess fines that can be caused by single dosing by some roasts, into a machine that is not designed for such functions, I use WDT to distribute all the tiny particles evenly (AFAHP) amongst their bigger buddies, hopefully ensuring an even flow of water through the puck. From what I have read it is not the fines that cause the consistency problems but their distribution or lack of it - bring on the Niche - which hopefully ends the pour inconsistency problems caused by poor distribution of coffee fines resulting from single dosing on non-single dosing designed machines.
                          I certainly think this is true.

                          I single dose the Robur, and firstly I have to substantially fine-up the grind to get a good pour (think mark 7 down to 4.5 on the main crown wheel - where when fully loaded 7 to 9 is espresso to plunger!). I've also found that giving the grounds a good swizzle in the portafilter with a multi-prong skewer-like device helps to get good flow - so perhaps this fines distribution is to blame. Same kind of thing used to be required in single dosing the M4 …

                          There is also a visually noticable shift in grind fluffiness and consistency that I only see when going back to a full hopper. Having said that – to reach that point on the big conical takes about 200g of coffee through before it settles down to work - so not and everyday process!!

                          There is some change in flavour with single dosing but it is subtle. But I've learned to leave with it – because you certainly can't turn over a Robur and shake the beans out!

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                          • #28
                            Barista Hustle also (jovially) warns that smaller particles will have a tendency to over extract whilst the larger sizes may or may not under extract (it's all so flippin dependent on countless variables), which could be good or bad - it comes down to the results in the cup - as always. Yes I have had roasts that taste excessively ashy and I have put that down to that particular bean/roast suffering over extraction of fines when single dosing. To test I then put the hopper on and fill up with the suspect and grind out the usual 20g - after dialling in, the result is, usually, no need to WDT and the ashyness is reduced substantially. It rarely happens - and always when I try a new bean or roast profile and I am fine tuning - pun intended.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by noonar View Post
                              Barista Hustle also (jovially) warns that smaller particles will have a tendency to over extract whilst the larger sizes may or may not under extract (it's all so flippin dependent on countless variables), which could be good or bad - it comes down to the results in the cup - as always. Yes I have had roasts that taste excessively ashy and I have put that down to that particular bean/roast suffering over extraction of fines when single dosing. To test I then put the hopper on and fill up with the suspect and grind out the usual 20g - after dialling in, the result is, usually, no need to WDT and the ashyness is reduced substantially. It rarely happens - and always when I try a new bean or roast profile and I am fine tuning - pun intended.
                              Ah well said. Results in the cup is really always the hallmark to go by, honestly if we counted all the different variables and then try to control every single one of them, you'd be in a lot of pain haha.. There are an infinite number of variables, even assuming that a grinder has the ability to grind and produce particles that are exaaaactly the same size as each other is not possible.

                              But even when I'm grinding for filter brews, I always single dose that (wouldn't make sense to fill a hopper for that), and I'm sure even filter brews need pretty even particle sizes just like espresso (perhaps not as crucial though?). But what you said about distributing fines has now got me in the practice of giving the grounds for filter a good stir before brewing. I'm assuming that's why many competitors sift the grounds in competition, but I just made a delightful V60 without needing to sift, just gave the grounds a good stir to try distribute them around evenly, even though I'm sure the fines would overextract and the others may underextract, who knows!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
                                I've also found that giving the grounds a good swizzle in the portafilter with a multi-prong skewer-like device helps to get good flow - so perhaps this fines distribution is to blame. Same kind of thing used to be required in single dosing the M4 …
                                Never found it necessary to do this with any grinder I've owned...
                                Perhaps due to the so-called 'Nutating Tamp' that I've always used, decent distribution is taken care of.

                                Never been a fan of introducing extra steps into the espresso equation though and have never found it necessary to deviate from what 'just works'...

                                Mal.

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