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Best grinder for convenient home espresso: Baratza Sette vs Mahlkonig Vario vs ???

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  • TampIt
    replied
    ... ask TampIt

    Originally posted by Yelta View Post
    At $180 a throw that's probably a good thing, ask Yelta.
    Hmm, twice in ten years for your mini... Probably close to the same 80Kg or so the SJ does on a set of steel burrs as a guess (IMO). Also roughly the same burr life as a Sunbeam 480 or Breville Smartgrinder.

    My oldest Vario is "only" 5+ years old but has now done well over 200Kgs. I say "well over" as one cafe owner forgot to get accurate figures for the last 6 weeks, so I didn't count it at all. Adding another 40+ Kg per week (their "normal" but they were actually a lot busier than usual) would take it over well 400Kg with no burr wear (or any other wear for that matter). FYI, I keep giving them the older one to see how long it takes to break - so far so good. Having said that, the Vario is not really good for high volume cafes as emptying the chamber every hour is pretty tedious.

    I reckon the Vario problems (especially gen2 or later) stem from lack of cleanliness. Filling the (small) chamber takes a while however, like most grinders, it will nuke the reliability pretty thoroughly if not cleaned out.

    That sounds like commercial vs domestic espresso machines - the main failures are from lack of maintenance irrespective of brand. Lack of quality from some makers simply reduce the time it takes to break anyway. Add user carelessness and, for example, you get a mountain of dead Silvias purely because they did not bother to keep the water tank filled. I had my Miss S for 9 years with minor routine maintenance only.

    What I look for performance in a grinder is an even particle spread, accurate grind texture and minimal grind retention. Then I look for decent engineering - and i would back a Swiss made (by Ditting) Vario gen2 (or later) against ANY Italian grinder in terms of that...

    Enjoy your cuppa and don't get too carried away with the gear - until it breaks and needs something.


    TampIt
    Last edited by TampIt; 9 April 2019, 10:15 PM.

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  • simonsk8r
    replied
    Originally posted by chokkidog View Post
    Maybe the grinder should be available as a spare part? Ask Simon.
    Hahaha touché :P.

    'Tis still goin fantasmically strooong ;P

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  • Yelta
    replied
    Originally posted by Erimus View Post
    1: The Vario has ceramic burrs and 2: They seldom need replacing. Ask Tampit.
    At $180 a throw that's probably a good thing, ask Yelta.

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  • chokkidog
    replied
    Originally posted by Erimus View Post
    You're compairing apples with oranges.

    1: The Vario has ceramic burrs and 2: They seldom need replacing. Ask Tampit.
    Maybe the grinder should be available as a spare part? Ask Simon.

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  • Caffeinator
    replied
    Originally posted by Erimus View Post
    You're compairing apples with oranges...They seldom need replacing..
    Perhaps...Only the grinders need to be replaced when they die.

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  • Erimus
    replied
    Originally posted by Yelta View Post
    I can buy three sets of OEM burrs for the Mini $52.30 a set, and get $23 change compared to the Vario $179 a set.



    You're compairing apples with oranges.

    1: The Vario has ceramic burrs and 2: They seldom need replacing. Ask Tampit.

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  • Yelta
    replied
    I can buy three sets of OEM burrs for the Mini @ $52.30 a set, and get $23 change, compared to the Vario $179 a set.

    In 10 years I've replaced 2 x sets.
    Last edited by Yelta; 8 April 2019, 12:47 PM.

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  • chokkidog
    replied
    How long does it take to replace a set of SJ burrs?? Less than an hour after service has finished for the day??

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  • Caffeinator
    replied
    I can count busted and poorly performing Varios and Settes I know of on one hand...

    Actually, no I can't. I can't count them even if I try all of the fingers and bring in all of the toes as well.

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  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by dischucker View Post
    Sorry if you answered this already but do you have the 270W or 270WI? The WI seems like it fixed quite a few issues similar to the ones you described.

    Having asked that, I'm thinking of getting either the 270 or Vario, as I can live without the built-in scales and there are reports both grinders can be used in "single dosing" mode anyway. 270 seems great value at ~$450 so I'm leaning that way.
    I have posted a few times about this, so rather than repeat the whole thing at length, this is the summary.

    Espresso quality in the cuppa - Mahlkoenig Vario wins hands down over the Sette. An embarrassing comparison.

    Coarser grinds - Sette all the way unless you fit the $30ish optional steel burrs to the Vario. Then the Vario does hopeless espresso but great(er) coarser grinds. FYI, coarser grinding improvement in particle spread does not affect the flavour quite as much as espresso - so whether the Vario is value for money is debatable. Personally, I have three Varios, so for me converting one to the steel burrs is a no brainer. YMMV.

    Scales vs timer - the "standard Vario" timer on gen2 and gen3's is so accurate (within 0.1g!) that weighing by scales is a waste of time. Although every time I change roasts I need to work out the correct grind and the work out the matching timer setting so I suppose scales may be faster on the "roast changes".

    Enjoy your cuppa


    TampIt
    PS: No Vario reliability issues for any of mine, oldest one is Nov 2013, done well over 200Kg of coffee (used in a cafe for a while when their SJ needed yet another set of burrs - twice). It is still on the original burrs and they are still pristine under a microscope. Impressive lack of wear.

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  • MichaelB
    replied
    Niche Zero

    Well my Niche Zero arrived two weeks ago and I'm really happy with it.
    In the last ten years I've gone from a cheap Sunbeam, to a Breville Smart Grinder Pro, to a Mazzer Mini, to the Niche Zero, and this is the first time the taste of my coffee has improved dramatically. (I'm still on my Gaggia Classic for brewing.)
    In addition to that, my workflow is waaaay easier than with the Mazzer, and I only need one grinder to grind three varieties of beans for any kind of coffee I want.

    More thoughts.
    • I got it in white, and IMO it looks significantly better in real life than on the website.
    • The burrs are from a Mazzer Kony. Not just similar to Mazzer Kony burrs, they are literally made by Mazzer, stamped with the Kony part number.
    • It's relatively quiet, and the noise is lower pitched, more rumbly than any of my previous grinders.
    • It's simple to use and clean. Taking the top burr out only takes a few seconds. Recalibrating is completely straightforward too. (Not that I've actually needed to clean it yet.)
    • There's no mess when grinding.
    • The dosing cup is the biggest thing to learn. Getting the coffee out of the cup and into my basket has to be done right so it sits evenly, or removing the cup and tamping can be messy. It's just technique though (mostly just a whack on the bench) and I think I have it figured out now.
    • The dosing cup is probably responsible for some of the change in flavour too. I'm sure it changes the way the coffee ends up compacted in the puck.
    • The dosing cup needs washing occasionally as it gets sticky. Makes me wonder how much my older grinders would benefit from some detergent wiped around in their chutes.
    • The cord storage is excellent. Spare cord just vanishes inside the base of the machine.


    Complaints (very minor)
    • I wish the shiny funnel shape on the top was slightly steeper. About one shot in three I wait for some popcorning to slide back down into the burrs, and it would get done faster with a bit more slope.
    • I wish the clear plastic lid fit snugly against the top of the shiny funnel instead of going right over it. As it is, the only place I lose any coffee (and it's a tiny, tiny amount) is when a shard pops out and goes between the top of the funnel and the clear lid, and ends up sitting on the dial where the numbers are.
    • I wish there were different pips on the number scale at the '5' marks. As it is, with numbers at every ten, then 9 identical pips in between, it's sometimes tricky to read.
    • I wish I had better scales. I have the Decent Espresso scales and I no longer believe they are anywhere close to 0.1g accurate. Dropping beans in one at a time causes the weight to go 17.6, 17.6, 17.6, 17.6, 18.3. Still, the coffee tastes good anywhere in that range.
    • The timber pieces are not as nicely finished as I hoped. Everything else looks as good or better than the photos, but the timber looks worse.
    • The shipping company tried to slug me with GST and a processing fee because the Niche people had included the shipping cost in the value of the unit on the shipping paperwork, which pushed it over $1000. It only took one email to sort it out though.


    Thanks for all the good advice, coffee snobs!
    Last edited by MichaelB; 4 April 2019, 03:28 PM.

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  • dischucker
    replied
    Originally posted by slugga View Post
    Oh, absolutely. As I said, it's really good when it's working properly, it's just too sensitive to any movement - if you drop something on the floor it stops. I'd be quite happy with one that didn't have the scales and perhaps should investigate some sort of metal cup to grind into and then tip it into the group handle. It would be much cleaner, too, with less ground coffee flying around.

    I didn't mean to be *quite* so hard on it :-D
    Sorry if you answered this already but do you have the 270W or 270WI? The WI seems like it fixed quite a few issues similar to the ones you described.

    Having asked that, I'm thinking of getting either the 270 or Vario, as I can live without the built-in scales and there are reports both grinders can be used in "single dosing" mode anyway. 270 seems great value at ~$450 so I'm leaning that way.

    Leave a comment:


  • slugga
    replied
    Originally posted by dischucker View Post
    Was there a noticeable improvement in shot quality (when the Sette is behaving itself)?
    Oh, absolutely. As I said, it's really good when it's working properly, it's just too sensitive to any movement - if you drop something on the floor it stops. I'd be quite happy with one that didn't have the scales and perhaps should investigate some sort of metal cup to grind into and then tip it into the group handle. It would be much cleaner, too, with less ground coffee flying around.

    I didn't mean to be *quite* so hard on it :-D

    Leave a comment:


  • dischucker
    replied
    Best grinder for convenient home espresso: Baratza Sette vs Mahlkonig Vario vs ???

    Originally posted by slugga View Post
    I went from a Smart Grinder to a Sette and I can't say I'm overwhelmed with the Sette. Everyday usage is a bit of a lottery.
    Was there a noticeable improvement in shot quality (when the Sette is behaving itself)?

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  • slugga
    replied
    I went from a Smart Grinder to a Sette and I can't say I'm overwhelmed with the Sette. Everyday usage is a bit of a lottery.

    It often doesn't grind up to the specified weight (You asked for 20g but you're only getting 16 and you're going to like it). I thought I'd fix that by making the third setting 4g but it jolts when you use such a low setting, which shifts the group handle which disturbs the scales which stops the grind. It's *really* frustrating.

    I was kind of hoping that the drop was longer too so I could put one of those sleeves in to stop ground coffee going everywhere, but it's quite short which means if the grinds don't fall away into the basket, it stops the grind.

    When it works, it's great, but I think a well set-up Vario will be less frustrating. I really like the Sette concept, but the execution is wanting.

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