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  • Robur Doser Retention

    I thought this might be of interest. It is a standard 2015 manufacture Robur with nothing altered or any mods of any sort other than a aluminium chute guide.

    Everyone knows the bigger the burrs, roughly more retention results often up to about 6 grams.

    The Robur has 71mm conical burrs and is driven by a 900 Watt motor and weighs 28kg so not your average home espresso machine although a lot are in homes like mine.

    I cleaned it by brushing then blowing with a compressor and recovered 5.7 grams which is about what others have found.

    Importantly this is AFTER TWO WEEKS of normal use. I labour this point as most measurements are taken after one grind on a clean grinder.

    I then put through three weighed amounts of 18, 18.1, 18.1 grams.

    I then recovered 13.7 giving 4.3grams retained for the first grind.

    I then recovered 19.2 grams the second grind so some of the previous shot carried over, +1.1 grams.

    The third grind I recovered 15.8 grams or -2.3 grams was retained.

    The total retention in the grinder over three shots is 5.5 grams almost matching what was recovered after two weeks by cleaning the grinder. Close.

    This means grinders quickly pick up coffee and the more places it can hide, the more is gathered.

    It also means any carry over is generally only a few grams.

    I find I can't notice variations through the day or the first shot of the day. I can't pick up any difference in either pour or taste.

    A smaller grinder such as a Mini or similar will retain about 3 grams so 5.7 grams for a massive grinder like the Robur is not too bad and is in line with what other people have found. The entire retention is distributed and so a portion may flow into the next shot but often it just hangs somewhere and stays there until cleaned.

  • #2
    Nice info, thanks. I'm also considering a Robur for home use, but thought it might be more hassle than it's worth, considering the alternatives. If I could get a brand new Robur Auto for under $1500, would you recommend it, considering the Niche would be the same money?
    Thanks.

    Comment


    • #3
      There's a Robert E on FB marketplace for $900 in Sydney

      Comment


      • #4
        The trouble with a grinder like this in a home setting is in changing grind size.
        It’ll be 4 or 5 dbl shots for it to fully change, hence the increase in popularity of the single dose grinder at home and in some cafes.
        It is definitely manageable. As with any piece of machinery you need to learn how to use them optimally

        Comment


        • #5
          I have owned a Mazzer Kony E for the last 2 years -,which is the “small” version of the Mazzer Robur Beast
          I believe it has less grind retention than the Robur.

          I have been tossing up whether I should upgrade the Kony as I have started to home roast and swapping grind settings is becoming a challenge.
          The combination of grind retention and course adjustment on the Kony makes dialling in a new roast time consuming - and a fair bit of coffee can be wasted.

          The trouble is to get a “better‘ home grinder eg Ceado SD means an outlay of $3.5K - and I have concluded I am not prepared to pay this much for convenience
          I have decided to live with the Kony’s limitations and be grateful for its many strengths...... Including rock solid dependability and grind consistency once settings are optimised.

          I regard the Robur electronic as incredibly good value Grinder especially on the used market - if you appreciate what big conical grinders can do in the cup and have the space.
          Most people that own a Robur are really happy with the results and what can be achieved - for a modest outlay.
          The equivalent in a new Ceado is the e37K at about $5.2K for the same spec burrs........this is more than what most people pay for a high end coffee machine!
          Last edited by warmtone; 4 October 2020, 12:44 PM.

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          • #6
            A Niche Zero is built for single dosing with negligible retention, and it uses Kony burrs. Might be ther best of both worlds for you. Its also well under $1500

            Comment


            • warmtone
              warmtone commented
              Editing a comment
              I read the comprehensive review of the a Niche zero on Home Barista - it does seem to perform very well against the EK43 and Kony.
              But build quality of the Niche is domestic and not in the same class as the Mahlkonig or Mazzer - but probably OK for home use.

              I note The HB tests revealed the extraction capabilities af the above Machines are quite similar and double blind testing did not pick a clear winner. Low grind retention is the key benefit of the Niche design - a significant benefit for single dose users.

              It will be interesting to compare notes In about 3 years to look at the long term reliability/cost of ownership of the Niche Zero.
              I personally don’t like the appearance of the Niche and prefer the design and build quality of the Kony - which despite having minor limitations has stood the test of time.

          • #7
            My Niche has its second birthday in 3 days, it's had about 60kg through it over the 2 years of ownership with no obvious sign of issue with build or component. I was a first adopter through the indigogo fund site. No, no regrets.

            Comment


            • #8
              Call me skeptical on the Niche Zero.

              I'm selling my Robur Automatic after 3 years as it is a bit big for the kitchen but I do love it. Retention IMHO has never been an issue, it really retains much less than you might think.

              It is the best grinder made but it is big.

              I have the Eureka Atom 60E. It isn't as good but it is suitable for kitchen use and does not look out of place.

              Comment


              • Barry O'Speedwagon
                Barry O'Speedwagon commented
                Editing a comment
                You're skeptical of the Niche Zero.

                Why, in particular? It's not for everyone, but given the number of them out there, the net isn't exactly flooded with stories of poor reliability. Simple design, smallish footprint.

            • #9
              I just find it kind of a weird looking device that is really all about zero retention, as the name implies.

              I’m sure it is just my personal preferences and I have interesting preferences like the Robur although I am selling it.

              I would never buy the Niche in a million years, just the way it is. I guess my preference is for bigger grinders although I do like quiet and practical such as the Atom. I also have a love of heavily built and solid grinders like the Mazzer series, pretty well all of them from the Mini upwards, they show craftsmanship and amazing build quality that even my Eureka Atom, doesn’t quite have.

              Call me old fashioned. I can live with the burden.

              Comment


              • warmtone
                warmtone commented
                Editing a comment
                I agree - the high end Mazzer's provide outstanding build quality , rock solid performance and possibly the best reliability in the market.
                And despite being currently out of fashion on this site the Kony and Robur models score highly in cupping reviews in the US.
                I think the whole subject of grind retention is being over hyped to justify a new market segment.

                In keeping with market expectations, Mazzer has also reduced grind retention in the new S models to a point where it is almost academic.
                If I replace my Mazzer Kony the new Mazzer Kony S, Kony Robur S will be on the shortlist with the Cedar e37 range.

                While the Niche Zero may score highly on low grind retention for me it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of visual appeal and construction quality.
                For others the enthusiastic reviews justifies the $1400 price tag.

                In the end it is about what makes you happy!

              • roosterben
                roosterben commented
                Editing a comment
                Can't really agree, try to find a bad review of a Niche online, or a reported hardware failure or , it is horses for courses but I would rather have the same or better grind quality in a device about a quarter of the size and weight, for a lower price.

                It isn't hype IMHO it is better design, evolution, a grinder in a better format for a better price particularly for non-commercial use.

                I have flipped a couple of Roburs and Kony electronic versions without any thought of keeping them in the last 6 months.

                I can appreciate the build quality of Mazzer but they are behind the eightball in terms of design and innovation against competitors in the commercial space like Anfim, Nuova Simonelli and Eureka.

            • #10
              I have flipped a couple of Roburs and Kony electronic versions without any thought of keeping them in the last 6 months.
              Really? I find it intriguing you so love the Niche that you buy then sell not one but two Mazzer grinders. Why is that?

              I can appreciate the build quality of Mazzer but they are behind the eightball in terms of design and innovation against competitors in the commercial space like Anfim, Nuova Simonelli and Eureka.
              I think absolutely that there is a huge amount of competition. It is the unseen elements such as stability, alignment and burr design, that make the grinder ultimately an average, good or great grinder and that is where Mazzer grinders shine. Mazzer are masters of design and so are still highly regarded, even if not the current fashion icon for grinders at this point in time.

              I agree, elements of usability such as accurate weights and low retention can make a difference to some users...and of course size which is why I sold the Robur.

              I would be interested in the new range of Robur grinders but I suppose, I just need a grinder, a good quality one and one that fits in my kitchen and the Atom does that and the grind is good quality.

              I also see commercial grinders, worth a small fortune where they put in some very sophisticated design to squeeze the last little bit of grinder performance out in commercial situations where heat is an enemy of performance. Grinders are an interesting technology.


              Comment


              • roosterben
                roosterben commented
                Editing a comment
                Re the selling the Mazzers it is a hobby that allows me to buy more coffee machines to fix up and play with (or upgrade my own coffee setup at home). I am much interested in the coffee machines than the grinders. I had thought about keeping one and using at work and/or for a coffee cart project I am working on. But in the end both grinders models were just too big and bulky for what I need. Also totally agree there are huge bargains out there in Mazzers due to the transient nature of the Cafes and how competitive things are. I picked up 2-3 Mazzer Kony/Roburs over a couple of month for $500-$600 all in excellent condition. What I was actually chasing was a large burr commercial flat grinder (Mazzer Major E or Mythos) to have something different to try from the Kony burrs in the Niche Zero.

                Having read the thrust of your thread at the start I actually do agree that retention is over hyped. Quality in the cup comes from consistency, burrs and good alignment (along with good beans and preparation).

                I also agree on the fashions that come and go, just look at EK43 and how they have gone out of favour. There was a massive surge in interest when Scott Rao was doing his super alignment and high extraction yield experiments.

                The current trend seems to be Mythos grinders (not sure if this is fashion or if they are just best bang for buck in a commercial setting) with a fair few Mazzer's thrown in from a handful of cafes around our area on the Gold Coast.

              • Ronin
                Ronin commented
                Editing a comment
                roosterben myths grinders are more of a pain in a commercial setting. Current trends are moving to anfirm, compak or malkonig grinders. Anyone I know with a mythos is looking to move them on

            • #11
              Originally posted by Ronin View Post
              The trouble with a grinder like this in a home setting is in changing grind size.
              It’ll be 4 or 5 dbl shots for it to fully change, hence the increase in popularity of the single dose grinder at home and in some cafes.
              It is definitely manageable. As with any piece of machinery you need to learn how to use them optimally
              Any grinder can take 4 or 5 shots to get it right if you don't know what you are doing and it is a big change (for some reason).

              These big grinders like the Robur actually retain a lot less than people imagine. I know how much to change it too when a change is necessary.

              It is also able to go back immediately if you strip it and clean it to the previous grind. This is more than just going back to the same grind setting but it will produce at the first shot, the same shot as before. If I do the same with an Atom then it seems to take longer to get there, maybe 2 - 3 shots.

              It seems a lot of misinformation here from people who are not experienced using these grinders. Sure if I had to change grind settings to suit quite different coffees all the time, I would not use the Robur but maybe a Eureka Mignon Specialita or similar.

              Most of us just roast and use one coffee at a time so I would be happy using either a Robur or my Atom or a Specialita, there isn't a lot of difference. Any wastage from the Robur comes from guessing the weight and sometimes discarding a small amount of coffee when I go over on the last coffee of the day. I might throw a couple of grams in the bin.

              Comment


              • Ronin
                Ronin commented
                Editing a comment
                Maybe.
                No misinformation in my comments though.

            • #12

              I think the whole subject of grind retention is being over hyped to justify a new market segment
              totally agree. I would never care about a few cents worth of grounds left over. It's almost a pointless subject. It's all about the grind quality.

              Comment


              • Ronin
                Ronin commented
                Editing a comment
                I agree with the over hype. The coffee industry is full of it really.
                I get to play with new toys a fair but at work. It would only be people with super palates that could taste the difference IMO

              • Barry O'Speedwagon
                Barry O'Speedwagon commented
                Editing a comment
                There are different reasons why people carry on about grind retention. For some it's the coffee wastage / stale grinds in the morning etc. For others (like me) its the ability to switch grind settings back and forth with precision and not stuff around waiting to get the old grinds out of the chute. It really depends what you want the grinder to do. I, for example, on occasion alternate between 'regular' and 'decaf'.....the Niche makes this a breeze. And as its getting warmer, I'll also grind for cold drip.

            • #13
              I am now a tad wary on Compak, Just saw a 4 year old e10 in need of a gearbox rebuild.

              Thing is it's been used only at home and nothing nasty has gone through it. Call it max 200kg- sorta like a 4 week old grinder in a cafe.

              Comment


              • Ronin
                Ronin commented
                Editing a comment
                I’m not personally a fan of them either, but they are being pushed by an importer pretty hard with a Synesso S200 or S300 package.
                I like the Robur S at work. Things are tanks.
                I also found a cool knock off home grinder that I’m thinking of buying. Had a play with it & works well. Minimum retention, variable speed motor, dose timer, even looks a bit like a small EK43 😆.

            • #14
              Originally posted by Caffeinator View Post
              I am now a tad wary on Compak, Just saw a 4 year old e10 in need of a gearbox rebuild.

              Thing is it's been used only at home and nothing nasty has gone through it. Call it max 200kg- sorta like a 4 week old grinder in a cafe.
              Something nasty had gone through it!

              Comment


              • #15
                Originally posted by Caffeinator View Post
                Something nasty had gone through it!
                Ouch. What was it?

                Comment

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