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  • #16
    Sounds like a good plan...

    Mal.

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    • #17
      Two grinders is a bad idea.

      I like it...

      Comment


      • #18
        Add the Anfim Super Caimano

        and

        Eureka Zenith 65

        both with dosers and both under $1000...

        Comment


        • #19
          I have 3 Malhkoenig Varios - 2 with the standard ceramic burrs for the Turkish to espresso textures, one with steel burrs for the coarser stuff. You would have to prise them out of my cold dead hands...

          The oldest Vario is about to turn 6 on 11/11/19 - and shows no burr wear at all - even under a microscope, despite having done a fair bit of service at some friend's cafes to the extent of 300+Kgs.

          Particle spread - way more even than any other sanely priced domestic grinder I have tried (not tried a Niche). Quiet, compact, minimal grind retention and dead accurate timer (within 0.1g consistently) makes it easy to live with.

          My only "Niche reservation": all conicals I (or Mahlkonig, or anyone else I have seem the data for) have tested have a twin peak of grinding texture distribution - i.e. too many fines at espresso textures. That reduces extraction ratios and/or introduces bitterness. I have yet to see anyone claim that the Niche solves this issue. If it does, I may swap my Varios for a Niche.

          Enjoy your cuppa

          TampIt

          Comment


          • #20
            I sat through Daniel Hoffsetter's (Anfim head of R&D) presentation about a year ago and had my mind blown by some of their findings, including that of the role of fines within the puck. Rather than just speculate about what a distribution should be and how that effects the cup, they are gathering verified scientific data.

            For mine, if I was given a Vario, I'd sell it immediately. Seen too many where the adjustment mechanism is shagged and in addition to that, I'm not prepared to own a grinder which looks like a $200 appliance. My personal opinion and it is what it is.

            The Niche is brilliant in its concept and execution. For me, it is a second grinder (in addition to an etzMAX on espresso duty). The Niche does filter, origin, decaf and for me, it's perfect for all of them. I believe it also meets the OP's brief pretty well.

            I also respect Dave Corby and his review and testing of the product which rather than mere speculation and drum beating is evidence based.
            Last edited by Caffeinator; 8 October 2019, 01:24 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              I'll take science every time too mate...

              Mal.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by wattgn View Post
                Add the Anfim Super Caimano

                and

                Eureka Zenith 65

                both with dosers and both under $1000...
                Thank you! Both nice grinders but having reviewed the Atom variants I am pretty much sold on timed dosing


                Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                I have 3 Malhkoenig Varios - 2 with the standard ceramic burrs for the Turkish to espresso textures, one with steel burrs for the coarser stuff. You would have to prise them out of my cold dead hands...

                The oldest Vario is about to turn 6 on 11/11/19 - and shows no burr wear at all - even under a microscope, despite having done a fair bit of service at some friend's cafes to the extent of 300+Kgs.

                Particle spread - way more even than any other sanely priced domestic grinder I have tried (not tried a Niche). Quiet, compact, minimal grind retention and dead accurate timer (within 0.1g consistently) makes it easy to live with.

                My only "Niche reservation": all conicals I (or Mahlkonig, or anyone else I have seem the data for) have tested have a twin peak of grinding texture distribution - i.e. too many fines at espresso textures. That reduces extraction ratios and/or introduces bitterness. I have yet to see anyone claim that the Niche solves this issue. If it does, I may swap my Varios for a Niche.

                Enjoy your cuppa

                TampIt
                Thanks TampIt. I did take some time to look closely an the Vario. Again a very nice grinder, but personally I'm not liking the visuals. While I'm sure the stepped grind adjustment works a treat I think I would prefer stepless.

                Originally posted by Caffeinator View Post
                I sat through Daniel Hoffsetter's (Anfim head of R&D) presentation about a year ago and had my mind blown by some of their findings, including that of the role of fines within the puck. Rather than just speculate about what a distribution should be and how that effects the cup, they are gathering verified scientific data.

                For mine, if I was given a Vario, I'd sell it immediately. Seen too many where the adjustment mechanism is shagged and in addition to that, I'm not prepared to own a grinder which looks like a $200 appliance. My personal opinion and it is what it is.

                The Niche is brilliant in its concept and execution. For me, it is a second grinder (in addition to an etzMAX on espresso duty). The Niche does filter, origin, decaf and for me, it's perfect for all of them. I believe it also meets the OP's brief pretty well.

                I also respect Dave Corby and his review and testing of the product which rather than mere speculation and drum beating is evidence based.
                Thanks! Thanks for the link, a bit beyond my level of required knowledge, but demonstrates AnFim commitment!

                I'm talking to CS Sponsors at the moment to ask some specifics about a couple of machines and getting them across the Nullabor.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Caffeinator View Post
                  I sat through Daniel Hoffsetter's (Anfim head of R&D) presentation about a year ago and had my mind blown by some of their findings, including that of the role of fines within the puck. Rather than just speculate about what a distribution should be and how that effects the cup, they are gathering verified scientific data.

                  For mine, if I was given a Vario, I'd sell it immediately. Seen too many where the adjustment mechanism is shagged and in addition to that, I'm not prepared to own a grinder which looks like a $200 appliance. My personal opinion and it is what it is.

                  The Niche is brilliant in its concept and execution. For me, it is a second grinder (in addition to an etzMAX on espresso duty). The Niche does filter, origin, decaf and for me, it's perfect for all of them. I believe it also meets the OP's brief pretty well.

                  I also respect Dave Corby and his review and testing of the product which rather than mere speculation and drum beating is evidence based.
                  G'day Caffeinator

                  "Seen too many where the adjustment mechanism is shagged": I wonder why that is? The manual (P20 on mine) has a big red caution sign and a message which reads as follows:-

                  "When the coffee grinder is switched off, partially ground coffee beans may remain between the grinding discs. The grind adjustment in the FINE direction (upwards) should always be made with the grinder in operation, since this may otherwise result in damage to the adjustment mechanism."


                  When they designed the gen2 Vario, Swiss company Ditting (part of Mahlkoenig group) essentially wrapped one of their commercial grinding modules (complete with long life ceramic burrs) in a compact quiet package. The downside is that any idiot can wreck the adjusters - just like the manual states. So far, within the Turkish to espresso range of grinding textures, the Vario beats all the grinders I have played with up to the 1985 "EK43 ancestor", the EK43 itself and the more upmarket Dittings.

                  When I get a chance I will try a niche in the hope it does better again, however I repeat all data I have on conicals (courtesy of hard core scientific measurement guys like David Walsh & Ben Kaminsky as well as a friend's medical laser refractometer here) shows the conical mechanism always creates a twin peak distribution with too many fines (plus extra "logs" AFAIAC). That is why sieving coffee grinds for fines (same friends mechanised sieve sets) actually levels the playing field between flat and conical burrs. Your Anfim links also backs flat burrs, not conicals. Hopefully the Niche doesn't "do the conical usual".

                  As to the look - I am a function first guy so I personally do not care what it looks like, although I have a slight preference for unobtrusive things that just work well.

                  Just my 2 cents.

                  TampIt
                  PS: If I had unlimited space and no regard for grind retention (I HATE stale coffee, burnt coffee and scalded milk equally) I would probably get one of the augur Ditting models. Totally impractical for a micro kitchen and domestic workloads.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Yep- could well be a case of RTFM!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I agree with Caffeinator generally and it should not be possible to break a grinder using simple adjustments while not on, not unless a large amount of force is used. I have seen and heard (loud) these grinders. I think he has a point about quality issues and appearances. I also never adjust to a finer grind setting with the grinder on unless I meet undue resistance.

                      Most conicals versus flat burrs is an argument not worth entering into as it is inflammatory and pointless with a lot of contradictory data. All that matters is that you like what is in the cup at the end of the process. Conicals I like as they are almost set and forget they are just that stable.

                      Conicals and Flat burrs cover a huge range and price of grinders and are both used by enthusiasts and both make great coffee. The Kafetek Monolith, for instance, hand-built in Seattle comes in both flat and conical with both popular...and expensive.


                      I think the Niche Zero with Kony conical burrs looks very nice and is well priced.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                        When I get a chance I will try a niche in the hope it does better again, however I repeat all data I have on conicals (courtesy of hard core scientific measurement guys like David Walsh & Ben Kaminsky as well as a friend's medical laser refractometer here) shows the conical mechanism always creates a twin peak distribution with too many fines (plus extra "logs" AFAIAC). That is why sieving coffee grinds for fines (same friends mechanised sieve sets) actually levels the playing field between flat and conical burrs. Your Anfim links also backs flat burrs, not conicals. Hopefully the Niche doesn't "do the conical usual".
                        As I'm sure you suspect, the Niche does do the conical usual. What makes the Niche special is either side of the burrs. Easily repeatable grind adjustment above, and practically zero retention below. Purging is a thing of the past. It's also reasonably quiet for a grinder, but still loud like a grinder. Only the Atom is below the jump-if-you're-not-expecting-it threshold for me (however my wife did manage to catch me off guard once when I must have been deep in thought).

                        Originally posted by wattgn View Post
                        I agree with Caffeinator generally and it should not be possible to break a grinder using simple adjustments while not on, not unless a large amount of force is used. I have seen and heard (loud) these grinders. I think he has a point about quality issues and appearances. I also never adjust to a finer grind setting with the grinder on unless I meet undue resistance.
                        I would suggest that best practice is to always adjust a grinder with it running (and to RTFM). Though conicals seem to be less sensitive to stationary adjustment, and I imagine your Robur would be about the sturdiest conical! The Vario sure has a set of pipes on it, it's is one of the loudest domestic grinders I've been in the same room as.


                        Originally posted by wattgn View Post
                        Most conicals versus flat burrs is an argument not worth entering into as it is inflammatory and pointless with a lot of contradictory data. All that matters is that you like what is in the cup at the end of the process.
                        I must respectfully disagree with your first statement and agree with the second. Yes there is a lot of contradictory information out there, but we don't have to value it all equally. I hope people like Anfim keep following the science to sort the wheat from the chaff and pushing the technology to even greater heights. I think it is worth asking, "Can we do it better?"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I like the Robur, retention and all (which doesn't bother me as I don't notice it in either taste or pour times).

                          I wouldn't recommend it to a newbie as it is very big, and too expensive new but you can get great buys on them second hand and they last forever.

                          There is always value in bulletproof construction and even dosers which I think work just fine for home users and help break up any clumps.

                          It comes down to what you value most and why. Room and bench space is also a major consideration for most people.

                          I like the way I can sometimes go from one bean to another, let alone between roasts of the same bean, without adjusting the grind, that is how stable it is. It is also quiet and quick doing 18 grams in less than five seconds.

                          People buy coffee machines and grinders for looks robustness, zero grind retention and so on.

                          I like the Niche Zero though and it is in picture for interesting home grinders that are well regarded.

                          I could go either flat burr or conical though. I don't have a fixation with one or the other except this one works so well, I have no reason to change except maybe for the sake of change. I think we all like to fiddle with new toys. One day maybe I will get something else as well as or instead of the Robur...who knows. I need a bigger kitchen though.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                            Originally posted by level3ninja View Post

                            When I get a chance I will try a niche in the hope it does better again, however I repeat all data I have on conicals (courtesy of hard core scientific measurement guys like David Walsh & Ben Kaminsky as well as a friend's medical laser refractometer here) shows the conical mechanism always creates a twin peak distribution with too many fines (plus extra "logs" AFAIAC). That is why sieving coffee grinds for fines (same friends mechanised sieve sets) actually levels the playing field between flat and conical burrs. Your Anfim links also backs flat burrs, not conicals. Hopefully the Niche doesn't "do the conical usual".
                            As I'm sure you suspect, the Niche does do the conical usual. What makes the Niche special is either side of the burrs. Easily repeatable grind adjustment above, and practically zero retention below. Purging is a thing of the past. It's also reasonably quiet for a grinder, but still loud like a grinder. Only the Atom is below the jump-if-you're-not-expecting-it threshold for me (however my wife did manage to catch me off guard once when I must have been deep in thought).
                            G'Day level3ninja

                            That is truly a shame. I have never understood why all measurements of conicals show that peak of fines. The logs I do understand, however most of them may be removed by good design.

                            Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
                            Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                            When they designed the gen2 Vario, Swiss company Ditting (part of Mahlkoenig group) essentially wrapped one of their commercial grinding modules (complete with long life ceramic burrs) in a compact quiet package. The downside is that any idiot can wreck the adjusters - just like the manual states. So far, within the Turkish to espresso range of grinding textures, the Vario beats all the grinders I have played with up to the 1985 "EK43 ancestor", the EK43 itself and the more upmarket Dittings.
                            I would suggest that best practice is to always adjust a grinder with it running (and to RTFM). Though conicals seem to be less sensitive to stationary adjustment, and I imagine your Robur would be about the sturdiest conical! The Vario sure has a set of pipes on it, it's is one of the loudest domestic grinders I've been in the same room as.
                            I think you are confusing the Sette (loudest domestic grinder I know of - especially the early ones) and the Vario. The Vario is, as I posted, pretty quiet. About 1/4 of Smartgrinders are quieter, most aren't. Most domestic grinders are noticeably noisier then a Vario. I know of no commercial grinder that is as quiet as the Vario. BTW, both my gen2 Varios passed the "5am whilst everyone else was asleep" test in a household of 6 for over a year.

                            Originally posted by wattgn View Post
                            Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
                            Most conicals versus flat burrs is an argument not worth entering into as it is inflammatory and pointless with a lot of contradictory data. All that matters is that you like what is in the cup at the end of the process. Conicals I like as they are almost set and forget they are just that stable.
                            I must respectfully disagree with your first statement and agree with the second. Yes there is a lot of contradictory information out there, but we don't have to value it all equally. I hope people like Anfim keep following the science to sort the wheat from the chaff and pushing the technology to even greater heights. I think it is worth asking, "Can we do it better?"
                            Conical vs flat - Please show me at least one genuine particle spread graph from a conical that does not show a twin peak if you can. I may well buy it if it small enough to fit in this micro kitchen.

                            "Can we do it better?": Yay to that! I cannot see how an augur grinder can be made "accurate and cheap" so I keep hoping that someone can come up with a genuine "all texture" grinder that is at least as accurate using some other technology. The standard ceramic burr Vario gen2 and gen3s are pretty poor outside their Turkish to espresso range, whilst the steel burr option makes it hopeless as an espresso grinder. You pays your money...

                            TampIt

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by flashpixx View Post
                              Thank you! Both nice grinders but having reviewed the Atom variants I am pretty much sold on timed dosing
                              If you want to potentially save an extra buck, look at the mignon range as well. I have the specialita, quiet, precise, low variability in grind, timed dosing, and retention I get is only between 0.1-0.2g when deep cleaned.
                              I am able to comfortably single dose with it.
                              I would highly recommend it compared with the atom for single dosing if that's your thing. I found the retention in the atom to be higher, around 0.4-0.6g in the one I played with.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Caffinator View Post
                                If you want to potentially save an extra buck, look at the mignon range as well. I have the specialita, quiet, precise, low variability in grind, timed dosing, and retention I get is only between 0.1-0.2g when deep cleaned.
                                I am able to comfortably single dose with it.
                                I would highly recommend it compared with the atom for single dosing if that's your thing. I found the retention in the atom to be higher, around 0.4-0.6g in the one I played with.
                                The perfect grinder doesn't exist but I agree for espresso it would be a top pick. The thing with the dial adjustment is it takes too long to go from say Turkish to espresso or to filter. Now this may not EVER be a problem for some people but it is worth pointing out as it can be a hassle as I found with my M4D.

                                I was thinking about it more. I love big grinders but bench space must be sacrificed so if I got another grinder it would be a home one and small.

                                The Mignon fits the bill but another one I like which has a 'normal' adjustment collar is the Ceado E6P.

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